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Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
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Author:  Wall Of Sound [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Moonrider wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
Wall Of Sound wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
See how it goes, Wall-san?

Image


Ah-so....




:D All these elephants you guys must really love big animals or your more conservative than I suspected. Really you guys need to take your pet for a walk he might have to go, then that will be one more thing for the manus to clean up.


So, are YOU using Supercore, Sweet Georgia Brown, Karaoke Kurrents, and or any other of the known unlicensed brands? These are created by criminals using unlicensed material. Using them when you know they're unlicensed is willful infringement and a federal crime in and of itself.

About 95% of the hosts here are using those brands knowing that they aren't licensed, including some of the most vocal "cheerleaders" and "anti-cheerleaders". That makes them just as much pirates as the hosts using the cloned hard drives that Sound Choice and Chartbuster are going after.

That's the elephant Brian.


I wanted to start a new thread about all this.

I will be the first to admit that I too have SuperCore, Sweet Georgia Brown, All Hits, NuTech & Monster Hits tracks in my commercial library.

When I first began producing karaoke shows, I bought most of these from tsckaraoke.com who still sells some of these brands along with Chartbuster, PHM, & Zoom. I also own an original SC8125 & SC Millennium (SC8100) which many have called into question of being totally licensed.

I really have no idea if the cover songs on these manufactured discs obtained proper licensing, including all the cover songs that I have on original discs from PHM, SC, or CB. If I'm running a disc based show with these discs & any of these cover songs are not licensed by the manufacturer, I guess I'm open to legal scrutiny by the songwriter/publisher if I perform the cover songs in public. Most of these discs state that "unauthorized public performance" is not allowed.

But wait! Doesn't ASCAP/BMI cover public performance of cover songs? Doesn't the songwriter/publisher members of ASCAP/BMI get a royalty check? I'm just getting paid to play a cover song recorded on a disc for someone to sing with & I'm not selling it, just playing it. But wait, there's more! I'm also displaying the lyrics of the song publicly. This is a whole different animal! Perhaps this is the Hippopotamus in the room! (Maybe we will need a new thread just on this argument.)

Now is it my responsibility to contact the songwriter/publisher or the disc manufacturer? Let's start with the disc manufacturers.

I contacted PHM, CB, & SC & asked about their licensing & was informed that they did have some issues in the past but have resolved them with songwriter/publishers.

So I need some help. Who has contact information for SuperCore? I will start with them. Can anyone else take up some others like Monster Hits or Sweet Georgia Brown? We need to know or we may be a target for lawsuits by songwriter/publishers just like if we downloaded songs from KaraokeDownloads.ca (Tricerisoft).

Also, how do we contact the songwriter/publisher & give them our entire cover song libraries produced on these defunct karaoke labels to find out if we are at risk? Can someone post contact information for this? I think it would be helpful to all of us.

I can do all this work & find out the truth if, like Joe, you pay me my regular hourly show rate.
Author:  jdmeister [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
What about all of those boxes of SGB I saw in San Pedro?
(In a garage owned by an Iranian)
Who do you think owns all of those?

Were they produced with proper license fees paid?

Inquiring minds want to know.. :mrgreen:
Author:  leopard lizard [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
I'm really surprised that no one has asked you for more info on that. It would seem that if CB really bought up the "rights" or whatever, that they would be interested in hearing about it.
Author:  c. staley [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Wall Of Sound wrote:
I wanted to start a new thread about all this.
I will be the first to admit that I too have SuperCore, Sweet Georgia Brown, All Hits, NuTech & Monster Hits tracks in my commercial library.

So, what you're really saying is you financially supported these allegedly pirate companies? Hmmmm

Wall Of Sound wrote:
When I first began producing karaoke shows, I bought most of these from tsckaraoke.com who still sells some of these brands along with Chartbuster, PHM, & Zoom. I also own an original SC8125 & SC Millennium (SC8100) which many have called into question of being totally licensed.

You mean that the distributor of these alleged pirate tracks is still in business? They haven't been approached by any manufacturers to stop selling these tracks and these same manufacturers are still financially supporting them by selling them product at wholesale? Talk about an elephant in the room! What a double-standard that is!

Wall Of Sound wrote:
I really have no idea if the cover songs on these manufactured discs obtained proper licensing, including all the cover songs that I have on original discs from PHM, SC, or CB.

You mean your buddies aren't even willing to prove to YOU that they are legal? Aren't you on their side and helping them to make money?
Wall Of Sound wrote:
If I'm running a disc based show with these discs & any of these cover songs are not licensed by the manufacturer, I guess I'm open to legal scrutiny by the songwriter/publisher if I perform the cover songs in public. Most of these discs state that "unauthorized public performance" is not allowed.

Most of them are.

Wall Of Sound wrote:
But wait! Doesn't ASCAP/BMI cover public performance of cover songs?

Only between the venue and ASCAP.... They really don't care about you. But, since you seem so confused, let me quote your buddies at Sound Choice:
SoundChoice Web Site wrote:
18. Do I need any Performance License to put on a show?
If you are hosting an event in a venue such as a restaurant or bar, the venue is supposed to have PERFORMANCE LICENSES issued from ASCAP (http://www.ascap.com ) or BMI (http://www.bmi.com ) which would cover your playing there. Again, the requirement for the performance license is on the venue, not you

Understand how that works now?
Wall Of Sound wrote:
Doesn't the songwriter/publisher members of ASCAP/BMI get a royalty check? I'm just getting paid to play a cover song recorded on a disc for someone to sing with & I'm not selling it, just playing it.

Yes they do.... from the venues. Come to think of it, YOU also get paid by the venue don't you? So what's your problem here? Do you think ASCAP should NOT get paid?
Wall Of Sound wrote:
But wait, there's more! I'm also displaying the lyrics of the song publicly. This is a whole different animal! Perhaps this is the Hippopotamus in the room! (Maybe we will need a new thread just on this argument.)

Yep.... now you're displaying lyrics for which there was no license.... that you purchased from a distributor selling unlicensed material, for which you are ignoring whether they are legal or not....

Wall Of Sound wrote:
Now is it my responsibility to contact the songwriter/publisher or the disc manufacturer?

Of course it is.... You want to run your business completely legally don't you? Like the upstanding "certified legal" KJ that you claim to be? NO?

Wall Of Sound wrote:
Let's start with the disc manufacturers.

I contacted PHM, CB, & SC & asked about their licensing & was informed that they did have some issues in the past but have resolved them with songwriter/publishers.

Like the millions of dollars in judgments they have/had against them for willful piracy? Would that be the "some issues" you're talking about?
Wall Of Sound wrote:
So I need some help. Who has contact information for SuperCore? I will start with them.

Happy to help.... just PM me your 16-digit Visa number.... (one good payment deserves another.)
Wall Of Sound wrote:
Can anyone else take up some others like Monster Hits or Sweet Georgia Brown?
You can simply call Chartbuster about SGB... they claim they "bought the catalog and registered the copyrights with the proper authorities".... should be easy enough.
Wall Of Sound wrote:
We need to know or we may be a target for lawsuits by songwriter/publishers just like if we downloaded songs from KaraokeDownloads.ca (Tricerisoft).

Get right on that. Sound Choice should be able to give you all the contact information you need for all the publishers that they've licensed through over the last 28 years.... Should be hundreds of the them...

Wall Of Sound wrote:
Also, how do we contact the songwriter/publisher & give them our entire cover song libraries produced on these defunct karaoke labels to find out if we are at risk? Can someone post contact information for this? I think it would be helpful to all of us.

Repeat: Sound Choice should be able to give you all the contact information you need for all the publishers that they've licensed through over the last 28 years....

Wall Of Sound wrote:
I can do all this work & find out the truth if, like Joe, you pay me my regular hourly show rate.

Are you charging your "regular hourly show rate" when you're working for SC? (Didn't think so.)
[cue slow flag-waving music]
Besides, aren't you dedicated to helping this industry and getting rid of all the pirates of the world so that only the legal, certified, vetted and hard-working KJ's can finally start getting paid what they are really worth?

Aren't you determined to join in the fight and assist the manufacturers "recover assets" that have been stolen from them so that they can become profitable enough to start producing current music for your patrons?

You should be happy to spend countless hours of your time in this battle to help the manufacturers instead of actually looking for and getting work singing "edgy songs" to support yourself.... it's just the kind of unselfish worker bee that you are.
[fade out slow flag-waving music]

Feel better?
Author:  DannyG2006 [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
I use to have Supercore, Radio Starz, Sweet Georgia Brown etc in my list. Granted I still have the discs but they are no longer on my drive. Don't believe me here is a songlist that was created by a csv file from compuhost and imported into Fast Tracks: http://www.freewebs.com/dannygkaraoke/song%20list.pdf
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
:thinkin: This thing is all so complicated and confused that I think Solomon would have a hard time trying to figure this one out. So much time will be consumed by hosts trying to solve these problems, I don't ever see with any degree of certainty, that you can can be absolutely sure your running a 100% legal show. That is why a simple solution to the problem is a license allowing the host to run his business. Then some compensation can be paid to the manus, and let their lawyers settle the details. Leaving the various hosts to focus on their own operations.
Author:  jdmeister [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
The Lone Ranger wrote:
:thinkin: This thing is all so complicated and confused that I think Solomon would have a hard time trying to figure this one out. So much time will be consumed by hosts trying to solve these problems, I don't ever see with any degree of certainty, that you can can be absolutely sure your running a 100% legal show. That is why a simple solution to the problem is a license allowing the host to run his business. Then some compensation can be paid to the manus, and let their lawyers settle the details. Leaving the various hosts to focus on their own operations.



God no.. Lawyers take all of the artists money..
Author:  Wall Of Sound [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
:rotflmao:

Well at least it got you all talking!
Author:  Moonrider [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Wall Of Sound wrote:
I will be the first to admit that I too have SuperCore, Sweet Georgia Brown, All Hits, NuTech & Monster Hits tracks in my commercial library.


So - are you using them, NOW, when you're pretty sure they "ain't quite kosher?" That's where the willful part comes in. When you decide "I don't know, and I don't really care 'cause nobody's gonna bust me for it anyway."

I've been searching for months for the manufacturers of those brands, and I'm about to come to the conclusion that they're all made by JD's "Iranian in a garage."
Author:  Moonrider [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
DannyG2006 wrote:
I use to have Supercore, Radio Starz, Sweet Georgia Brown etc in my list. Granted I still have the discs but they are no longer on my drive. Don't believe me here is a songlist that was created by a csv file from compuhost and imported into Fast Tracks: http://www.freewebs.com/dannygkaraoke/song%20list.pdf


There's the second person who's stopped using them! Thank you Danny.
Author:  Moonrider [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
The Lone Ranger wrote:
I don't ever see with any degree of certainty, that you can can be absolutely sure your running a 100% legal show.


Bovine fecal matter. Well seasoned with Equine fecal matter.
Author:  Moonrider [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
jdmeister wrote:
God no.. Lawyers take all of the artists money..


Nah . . . they get what the labels leave behind. Indie is the only way.
Author:  Moonrider [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Wall Of Sound wrote:
:rotflmao:

Well at least it got you all talking!


<snork>
Author:  DannyG2006 [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Moonrider wrote:
DannyG2006 wrote:
I use to have Supercore, Radio Starz, Sweet Georgia Brown etc in my list. Granted I still have the discs but they are no longer on my drive. Don't believe me here is a songlist that was created by a csv file from compuhost and imported into Fast Tracks: http://www.freewebs.com/dannygkaraoke/song%20list.pdf


There's the second person who's stopped using them! Thank you Danny.

The illegallity issue is just one of the reasons I stopped using them. The other reason is that most of those brands with the exception of Radio Starz are inferior products.
But I made a conscious decision not to use products I don't have the permissions to by the manufacturer.
Author:  Wall Of Sound [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Moonrider wrote:
Wall Of Sound wrote:
I will be the first to admit that I too have SuperCore, Sweet Georgia Brown, All Hits, NuTech & Monster Hits tracks in my commercial library.


So - are you using them, NOW, when you're pretty sure they "ain't quite kosher?" That's where the willful part comes in. When you decide "I don't know, and I don't really care 'cause nobody's gonna bust me for it anyway."

I've been searching for months for the manufacturers of those brands, and I'm about to come to the conclusion that they're all made by JD's "Iranian in a garage."


Yes I am, & until a law is passed, it would not be willful besides, I do not know for sure if the music had been licensed or not by these manu's & as I understand it, the law can not become retroactive.

I also have some weird music CDs I use that don't have the original artists singing the songs. Got them at WalMart & they are made in China. Just like NuTech discs made in China, which BTW has a full version of "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" which is pretty good. NuTech also is the only brand I know that has "Three Little Pigs" by "Green Jelly". I've had that disc since around '95.

These manu's may have stolen from the artists but every venue I play in has proper ASCAP/BMI licensing so any members attached to ASCAP/BMI is getting paid something from the venues I play in no matter what track I use.

So I actually have to agree with Joe on this. It's on whoever produced this music in the first place, not the one who plays it. I'd say the same on downloads from KaraokeDownloads.ca (Tricerisoft), sponsor to KaraokeScene.com, for legal downloads, but that is where Joe & I disagree.

BTW, do you know any bands who use click tracks & pre-recorded bass lines? How about a guitar player singer who has backing tracks they created in studio to use while performing? Do you seriously think they have licensed that creation to use? How many single performers out there use midi files as backing tracks they created or freely downloaded online? However, if they are performing in an establishment that has the ASCAP/BMI licensing, the artists are getting paid.

Now if we need to talk about the Hippo in the room about displaying lyrics, creating a new thread may be helpful.
Author:  Wall Of Sound [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
DannyG2006 wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
DannyG2006 wrote:
I use to have Supercore, Radio Starz, Sweet Georgia Brown etc in my list. Granted I still have the discs but they are no longer on my drive. Don't believe me here is a songlist that was created by a csv file from compuhost and imported into Fast Tracks: http://www.freewebs.com/dannygkaraoke/song%20list.pdf


There's the second person who's stopped using them! Thank you Danny.

The illegallity issue is just one of the reasons I stopped using them. The other reason is that most of those brands with the exception of Radio Starz are inferior products.
But I made a conscious decision not to use products I don't have the permissions to by the manufacturer.


Danny, have you tried to get permission from these manu's to mediashift?
Author:  DannyG2006 [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Wall Of Sound wrote:
DannyG2006 wrote:
Moonrider wrote:
DannyG2006 wrote:
I use to have Supercore, Radio Starz, Sweet Georgia Brown etc in my list. Granted I still have the discs but they are no longer on my drive. Don't believe me here is a songlist that was created by a csv file from compuhost and imported into Fast Tracks: http://www.freewebs.com/dannygkaraoke/song%20list.pdf


There's the second person who's stopped using them! Thank you Danny.

The illegallity issue is just one of the reasons I stopped using them. The other reason is that most of those brands with the exception of Radio Starz are inferior products.
But I made a conscious decision not to use products I don't have the permissions to by the manufacturer.




Danny, have you tried to get permission from these manu's to mediashift?

A lot of these brands are orphan brands, meaning there is no one to contact. I would have to wait until they get bought up by the big three before pursuing them. Most of them are unlicensed brands withe exception of Zoom which was licensed at one time before the MSCP stuff.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Danny, have you tried to get permission from these manu's to mediashift?[/quote]
A lot of these brands are orphan brands, meaning there is no one to contact. I would have to wait until they get bought up by the big three before pursuing them. Most of them are unlicensed brands withe exception of Zoom which was licensed at one time before the MSCP stuff.[/quote]


:? See there you go again Danny with that "until they get bought up by the big three" stuff, and after Joe stated that you and KJ athena had been misinformed by your sources at to these intentions. So once again we are back to the big three are going to corner the market on trademarks, and use the copyright laws concerning trademark infringement to violate 4th amendment rights of the hosts. I'm really curious if the hosts realize the implications of all of this. This means this big three will represent a cartel much like the oil cartel and corner the market on trademarks. Yous see how this works on the price of the gas you put in your car. Then you'll just pull your show up to their pump, and they stick the hose in and fill you up, if you get the picture. Of course they will set the price, once you are hooked you will have to pay whatever they dictate.
Author:  Moonrider [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Wall Of Sound wrote:
Yes I am, & until a law is passed, it would not be willful besides, I do not know for sure if the music had been licensed or not by these manu's & as I understand it, the law can not become retroactive.


So you're "I don't know and I don't care." Fair enough.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Let's Talk About The Elephant In The Room
Moonrider wrote:
Wall Of Sound wrote:
Yes I am, & until a law is passed, it would not be willful besides, I do not know for sure if the music had been licensed or not by these manu's & as I understand it, the law can not become retroactive.


So you're "I don't know and I don't care." Fair enough.




:D I think what is really being said here is that every host decides ultimately what he or she will allow in their particular show. That is their choice as independent owner operators of their own business's. For anybody to try to derail that process, is trying to kill all entrepreneurial aspects of this business. That is why it is vital for all hosts to the the legal right under law to run their own operation. Most other business's are licensed, and as long a they are they are able to conduct themselves in public.
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