Karaoke Forums

I started to ask this question in the pricing thread, but felt it might be more appropriate here.

Do you educate venues/customers when negotiating price?
If so how do you go about it?

Do or would you use it to obtain a gig from a Pirate KJ?

No, and no.
I am not about to "educate" the venue owners because in my area, they will definitely end up refusing to have karaoke altogether out of fear. They haven't the time to go searching for information, and with what's out there, it's all confusing to the uninitiated, anyway.(PS: I'm not going to debate this fact with anyone. Been done to death already.)
As for stealing gigs from others, it's not something I would ever do. And yes, it's STEALING, even from a pirate.
I won't do it because it only looks bad on me. Most people won't see it the way you do. All they will see is someone stealing another person's gig (ie: income, food on the table, roof over their head), and that's BAD for business.
If I am asked in by management, however, that's another story altogether.

Stealing? Surely you jest. It's no more stealing than Coke and Pepsi, or Starbucks and Dunkin' Donuts, or Ford and GM, etc trying to get exclusive clients from each other. It's called business. And to take something from a theif is just plain justice.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

That may be, but that's not how the general public and potential clients will see it.
BAD for business!
This is a small town area. People still do business on a handshake and your word.
Thieving is still thieving, no matter who does it or the circumstances surrounding it.
I stand by what I've said, even if you disagree and don't like it.
You have your opinion, which you're entitled to, and I have mine, which I'm entitled to as well.

So is a KJ ....uhm I mean Pirate.... that just started out by paying $500 for a 40,000 song hard drive and undercutting everyone's prices in the area not stealing potential income, cutting food of the table and jeopardizing the roof over the KJ's paying for their music and maintaining a 1:1?

That may be, but that is not how the general public, who know little to nothing of the issue is going to see it. To be rather blunt, they just don't care about piracy and all they want to do is sing.
And all they will see is one KJ stealing another's gig. There may be more to it, but again, they don't know and they don't care.

wow, for once we are on the same page. unfortunately, singers that care about anything more than being able to sing their songs are rather rare. although, it does not make the pirate any less of a douche either. no win on this one

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Definitely no win. I may not be "politically correct" on the subject, but I live in reality and will do what is best for my business, regardless of what others think of it.
I could come on this board and lie about my opinions and how I run my business to gain accolades from everyone here, but why should I? Who would be helped by that?
I'll continue to do what I do the way I do it as long as it works for me. The rest of you may not think it's "morally correct" or the right way to do things, but I'm making VERY good money at it the way it is. To do anything less would be cutting my own nose of to spite my face.

Club owners and singers, for the most part, simply don't care where the KJ gets their music. What they care about is price, and the number of asses you put in the seats.. and the number on the tape when they Z out the register.

I would never approach a club owner who has an existing DJ/KJ in place with a line like, "Your current guy is a pirate and a thief, and i'm not, which is why you should hire me and fire him."

In fact, the only real time i've ever spoken with a club owner about my services when they have an existing KJ/DJ in place is when I have multiple current patrons tell me, "Dude.. you should talk to such and such club.. their karaoke guy sucks."

In those cases, i'll give the patron my card, and tell them to pass it along to the manager of the club. If they're interested, they'll call me and i'll go from there.

Business is business.. and every day companies are trying to 'steal' clients from their competitors. It's just not the way *I* prefer to do business.

I have been in situations where i've been asked to explain why my services are worth $175 a night, when the kid with a hard drive full of bootleg music is willing to do the same job for $50 a night.

I prefer to make the argument for my services based on experience, a proven track record, and multiple references.

I'll invite the prospective client to come check out one of my shows, then one of the $50 a night kid, and then he can tell *me* what the difference is.

Bar business is about people liking you. People can go on about legal libraries, premium sound systems, concert quality DMX lighting systems, SM58 vs. VocoPro.. at the end of the day, you can have the best of the best of everything.. and if people think you're a d!ck, you're not going to get paid nearly as much as the cool guy with the average rig.

Telling a prospective client his current KJ is a pirate and he should book you instead is tantamount to being a 'snitch'.. and a 'snitch' is usually a douche bag.

Exactly!


Very well and succinctly said! This is what I was trying to get at.
Thanks.

With there being the possibility that a bar owner could get sued big time for hiring a priate host, I feel it would be unethical to take a job without telling them of the risks of doing karaoke and what we have done to minimize them. But it IS a tightrope and I have tended not to do it until AFTER they have seen us in action a few weeks.

There can be a backlash against a legal host, especially if the pirates rule the area and can mobilize the loyal who have really accepted file sharing as the norm and resent anyone who would take that away. But you get to the point where you wonder how long you want to let the theives dictate the terms and set the agenda. The main point of the show is to promote the fun but if the subject comes up, I don't shy away from "educating" although I'm not sure it is giving us any advantage in the short term. But it has to start somewhere.

Let's say you're trying to get started in an small rural area with limited venues run mainly by Pirates.

One particular venue uses multiple KJ's over multiple nights and they go through them pretty frequently. Would you not drop by, let them know you're available and leave them a card?

At that point what would be wrong with informing them you're aware of the legalities of karaoke and you've got your business in order? That might prompt them to ask more questions.

I'm not saying point out that KJ X, Y & Z aren't legal. Honestly I doubt that most venues even know the risks they're taking. But seems to me by planting the seed they may question their KJ's and either encourage them to get legal if they're not or maybe even run them off leaving you a space to fill.

I can't see this as even a remote possibility.
They generally don't know and don't care what a KJ's (or Dj's) legality situation is. They just want to get the best deal they can.
The $ is their bottom line.

So in your experience venue owners don't care about legalities only the bottom line, regardless of how that may effect them down the road?

I absolutely educate venues and customers at every chance I get.

I have NEVER however walked into a venue and said So and So your KJ is a pirate that is for the venue owner to determine.

I pass out info to any venue that does karaoke to educate them as to how to protect themselves from being involved in a lawsuit and insure the KJ they use is legal.

I devote the first page of my songbooks to educating singers about the piracy issue.

our area has been over run with file sharing mentality for so long it is an uphill battle...but we are seeing some changes happening abet slowly

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I pass out the Sound Choice and KIAA brochures every chance I get to every venue that is or may be doing karaoke, although I am not a multiop. I have received a fair amount of calls from venues looking for a certified KJ I refer them to the Sound Choice and Chartbuster websites.

Yes some venues do drop karaoke when they find out about the lawsuits, most from finding out thier KJ is a pirate and not wanting to deal with them any longer, and not finding or not being able to book a llegal KJ. But too me this is a good thing because it reduces the show saturation that piushes the prices for a legal KJ down. If more legal KJs will get involved in becoming certified and identifying and informing venues that are using pirate KJs the turn around will be a lot faster and smoother.

Become proactive and become part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.

That's my intentions exactly. I'm working on getting my discs in order and contacting CB for an audit. If SC can also do audits by skype I will be contacting them as well. I'm in a very rural area and probably will be years before an auditor is in my area.

VirginKaraoke....great way to put it into words. I agree wholeheartedly. If you are legal get your audits done and start educating your area...it will be worth it in the long run.



Go Virgin....Go Hiteck...go everyone else Legal

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Thank you KJ Athena.

More to the point of the question asked

Would I use the information and the fact that I was legal to take a gig away from a pirate if I had that night available?

The ANSWER is YES in a heartbeat, even if it meant doing the gig for free!

If I did not have that night available but knew of another legal KJ who had that night open I would do everything in my power for him to take the gig away from the pirate no matter how good of a show the pirate may put on!

The whole point is to put the pirates in this business out of business.

I have not really educated my venues, but I do plan to in an upcoming marketing campaign. You have to be careful though because you do not want to start making owners thinking that YOU are going to sue them. I say that because I did send out some marketing information to a bar who I heard was thinking about starting karaoke. I thought I could use being legal to my advantage and I think it backfired. I also admit that I might have been a little too over the top in saying that the venue could be subject to copyright infringement from the manu's and unfair competition from other KJs.

If you do choose to go that route, I would be very careful!