Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?

Gathering information on the other discussion it seems pretty certain the SC investigation is in my home state. In reading the many posts about this it seems even the LEGAL PC KJ's are being hassled into proving their legality.

Can someone explain without the ARGUMENTS what actual happens when a SC investigator visits your show? Do I need to start bringing my cases of discs to every show now ?

Do they come in and steal your books? Make a list of every SC song you play ?
What actually happens ?????

**again from the people who know ***
Not a discussion if its right or wrong ..pick one of the other hundred discussions for that

OK so I know nothing about this ...but what I don't understand is this ...

You have a show and 20 songs that night are SC and the balance others..... Do you have to prove legality of just those songs shown the night you were VISITED ?

I mean a pirate with 80,000 songs in their library have probably never ever played 90% of those titles LOL

....

jamkaraoke @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:55 am wrote:

They recently completed a sweep in florida, and in each and every case (that I'm aware of), whereby a suit was filed, the hosts never new they were visited. In hindsight, a few hosts recall some suspicious questions being asked just prior to being served, such as "how many songs do you have", "wow, how do you get so many songs?" etc. In every case that I'm aware of, the hosts had in excess of 50,000 songs in their library, that equates to a $30,000-$50,000 investment, my bet is they're illegal as hell! In fact, out of the 20 or so suits filed, all but ONE of them settled, if they were on the up and up, wouldn't they fight it? As far as I'm concerned, if you're stealing, I hope you get caught!

tbreen

Tbreen, that is actually kind of how it works. The thing here is they are not filing a copyright infringement saying that you have x number of tracks that you don't own copyright license for. Instead they're filing a lawsuit based on trademark saying that you used their logo without permission. So in that case, each display of the logo is a separate violation (or at least could be argued so, I could also make the case that it's not).

What keeps the pirate for looking in his history and just buying the SoundChoice discs in question he/she played on that night?

The chances are excellent that you won't even know you've been investigated until a suit is filed. And if you are legit, you won't know at all.

timberlea @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:32 pm wrote:

The chances are excellent that you won't even know you've been investigated until a suit is filed. And if you are legit, you won't know at all.

Not true... from what several have written about already. People that are legit also received those letters of intent.

2 people in this forum have already stated that.

What keeps the pirate for looking in his history and just buying the SoundChoice discs in question he/she played on that night?

How many unique songs is it even possible to play in a 4 hour show?

240 minutes.. even if you played every song back to back with no pause between singers that's a maximum of 80 songs.

Unless you were playing tracks that are out of print/no longer available/can't find anywhere.. seems like it would be pretty easy to determine what tracks they're accusing you of playing and then picking them up.

Seems like that investigation would have to go on for far longer than a single evening.

Author:	jamkaraoke [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:55 am ]
Post subject:	How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
Gathering information on the other discussion it seems pretty certain the SC investigation is in my home state. In reading the many posts about this it seems even the LEGAL PC KJ's are being hassled into proving their legality. Can someone explain without the ARGUMENTS what actual happens when a SC investigator visits your show? Do I need to start bringing my cases of discs to every show now ? Do they come in and steal your books? Make a list of every SC song you play ? What actually happens ????? again from the people who know * Not a discussion if its right or wrong ..pick one of the other hundred discussions for that

Author:	tbreen [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
jamkaraoke @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:55 am wrote: Gathering information on the other discussion it seems pretty certain the SC investigation is in my home state. In reading the many posts about this it seems even the LEGAL PC KJ's are being hassled into proving their legality. Can someone explain without the ARGUMENTS what actual happens when a SC investigator visits your show? Do I need to start bringing my cases of discs to every show now ? Do they come in and steal your books? Make a list of every SC song you play ? What actually happens ????? again from the people who know * Not a discussion if its right or wrong ..pick one of the other hundred discussions for that They recently completed a sweep in florida, and in each and every case (that I'm aware of), whereby a suit was filed, the hosts never new they were visited. In hindsight, a few hosts recall some suspicious questions being asked just prior to being served, such as "how many songs do you have", "wow, how do you get so many songs?" etc. In every case that I'm aware of, the hosts had in excess of 50,000 songs in their library, that equates to a $30,000-$50,000 investment, my bet is they're illegal as hell! In fact, out of the 20 or so suits filed, all but ONE of them settled, if they were on the up and up, wouldn't they fight it? As far as I'm concerned, if you're stealing, I hope you get caught! tbreen

Author:	Lone Wolf [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
Although I haven't had the pleasure of SC coming in from what I've read NO ONE really knows how they do it only the aftermath. From the law suits that have been filed it says that so & so was seen showing the SC logo at "whatever place" and is in violation of trademark infringement. Only person that I know who has been caught and cleared by and audit is Athena and she has posted her story here somewhere. Have also read that they are now sending letters of intent before filing a law suit and if you can prove that you are 1:1 by an audit no suit is filed. If you ignore the letter then they file. Anyone else have anything different?

Author:	jamkaraoke [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
OK so I know nothing about this ...but what I don't understand is this ... You have a show and 20 songs that night are SC and the balance others..... Do you have to prove legality of just those songs shown the night you were VISITED ? I mean a pirate with 80,000 songs in their library have probably never ever played 90% of those titles ....

Author:	tbreen [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
jamkaraoke @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:58 am wrote: OK so I know nothing about this ...but what I don't understand is this ... You have a show and 20 songs that night are SC and the balance others..... Do you have to prove legality of just those songs shown the night you were VISITED ? I mean a pirate with 80,000 songs in their library have probably never ever played 90% of those titles .... Isn't that like saying it's ok to steal a car as long as you don't drive it afterward? If a KJ has 50,000 stolen tracks and only plays 500, he has no less STOLEN and is in possession of 50,000 stolen tracks...GUILTY AS CHARGED! tbreen

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Author:	theCheese [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
From the few stories i've read on the subject, the 'SoundChoice Investigators' seem to operate much like a 'secret shopper'. They're looking for people with huge libraries that are running off laptops. Their idea of a huge library seems to be anything over 10,000 songs. From there, presumably, they look for mention of SoundChoice.. like SC designations in the books, or the SoundChoice logo on the lyrics screen. I highly doubt the investigator would identify themselves as such.. since (again, presumably) this investigator is investigating multiple shows and to reveal themselves would be the equivalent of a undercover policeman blowing his cover. If you're an investigator for SoundChoice, you don't want patrons at a show pointing you out saying, "Hey! That's the guy that busted Carl last week!" Not to mention some folks might be inclined to cause such a person physical harm. In cases where they eventually file suit, or send you a letter notifying you of their intent to file suit unless you comply with their 'inspection'.. I have to wonder how they determine what SoundChoice tracks you claim to have vs. how many you have obtained legally? I mean.. do the investigators steal one of your books? In the event the case goes to court, how do they determine what specific songs you were infringing on their copyright with?

Author:	letitrip [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
Tbreen, that is actually kind of how it works. The thing here is they are not filing a copyright infringement saying that you have x number of tracks that you don't own copyright license for. Instead they're filing a lawsuit based on trademark saying that you used their logo without permission. So in that case, each display of the logo is a separate violation (or at least could be argued so, I could also make the case that it's not). This is what allows them to operate in the fashion they do, all they have to do is see the logo displayed and have reason to believe that you don't have permission to be displaying it and that's enough to file suit. The burden of proof just to file a copyright claim is far more demanding and as such not feasible. This is why many here have speculated if they could even make this case stick, it's not really the way trademark law was meant to be interpreted and enforced, but we wouldn't know unless it goes to court. If it did go to court, SC wouldn't be happy anyway. They'd have to give up the identities of their investigators and the details of their investigation strategy which would be entered into public record. SC would much rather settle out of court, save the court costs and make the easy money. Even if SC won in court, what are the chances that some pirate is going to be able to pay the millions of dollars they could potentially be on the hook for. SC is better off with a settlement as is the pirate.

Author:	rumbolt [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
tbreen @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:23 pm wrote: jamkaraoke @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:55 am wrote: Gathering information on the other discussion it seems pretty certain the SC investigation is in my home state. In reading the many posts about this it seems even the LEGAL PC KJ's are being hassled into proving their legality. Can someone explain without the ARGUMENTS what actual happens when a SC investigator visits your show? Do I need to start bringing my cases of discs to every show now ? Do they come in and steal your books? Make a list of every SC song you play ? What actually happens ????? again from the people who know * Not a discussion if its right or wrong ..pick one of the other hundred discussions for that They recently completed a sweep in florida, and in each and every case (that I'm aware of), whereby a suit was filed, the hosts never new they were visited. In hindsight, a few hosts recall some suspicious questions being asked just prior to being served, such as "how many songs do you have", "wow, how do you get so many songs?" etc. In every case that I'm aware of, the hosts had in excess of 50,000 songs in their library, that equates to a $30,000-$50,000 investment, my bet is they're illegal as hell! In fact, out of the 20 or so suits filed, all but ONE of them settled, if they were on the up and up, wouldn't they fight it? As far as I'm concerned, if you're stealing, I hope you get caught! tbreen Amen Brother!!!!

Author:	theCheese [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
letitrip wrote: Tbreen, that is actually kind of how it works. The thing here is they are not filing a copyright infringement saying that you have x number of tracks that you don't own copyright license for. Instead they're filing a lawsuit based on trademark saying that you used their logo without permission. So in that case, each display of the logo is a separate violation (or at least could be argued so, I could also make the case that it's not). If it's strictly a case of 'you don't have permission to display our logo' then couldn't a pirate simply buy ONE SoundChoice disc? Wouldn't buying a single disc give the pirate the legal permission to display the SoundChoice logo? Seems like they'd have to have some way to show how many instances the copyright infringement happened, and then be able to prove that each instance was, in fact, an infringement on their copyright.

Author:	mckyj57 [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
I am sure they keep track of what songs were played, and in the case where someone went to court they would ask (in discovery) what disks were owned. Then they have an investigator testify that they saw and heard the Sound Choice version of "One of These Nights" or "Peaceful Easy Feeling" and watch the defendant squirm. Or the equivalent. In particular, at a lot of city shows there is a huge amount of SC 90s rock played. Few of those songs are on Foundations or the bricks (I know, I get requests all the time with whining that "the other guys have Sound Choice") and you would have to own a lot of Spotlight disks to cover them all.

Author:	theCheese [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
What keeps the pirate for looking in his history and just buying the SoundChoice discs in question he/she played on that night? How many unique songs is it even possible to play in a 4 hour show? 240 minutes.. even if you played every song back to back with no pause between singers that's a maximum of 80 songs. Unless you were playing tracks that are out of print/no longer available/can't find anywhere.. seems like it would be pretty easy to determine what tracks they're accusing you of playing and then picking them up. Seems like that investigation would have to go on for far longer than a single evening.

Author:	Lonman [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
theCheese @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:22 pm wrote: What keeps the pirate for looking in his history and just buying the SoundChoice discs in question he/she played on that night? Provided they are even available anymore. There are approx 300 out of print discs in the Spotlight Series alone. 8125, 8148, 8195, 8199 are just 4 discs that are used nightly at my own shows that you couldn't purchase if you wanted to in most cases. E-bay might be a source, but there are several discs that just cannot be found - these are most likely some of the target songs they (investigators) start looking for.

Author:	Cueball [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
jamkaraoke @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:55 pm wrote: Gathering information on the other discussion it seems pretty certain the SC investigation is in my home state. In reading the many posts about this it seems even the LEGAL PC KJ's are being hassled into proving their legality. Can someone explain without the ARGUMENTS what actual happens when a SC investigator visits your show? Do I need to start bringing my cases of discs to every show now ? Do they come in and steal your books? Make a list of every SC song you play ? What actually happens ????? again from the people who know * Not a discussion if its right or wrong ..pick one of the other hundred discussions for that http://www.karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19629 and http://www.karaoke-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19640

Author:	timberlea [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
You will not spot an experienced investigator. As far as an investigator testifying? Not a problem. He or she will then get back out and continue their investigation. Will they be known? I highly doubt it. Remember police departments have investigators that go "undercover" all the time and tesify in court. The truth of the matter is, unless you attend hearings, and see them for yourselves, you won't recognize them in the field. Police use their personnel on a myriad of cases. They don't take someone out just because they solved a case and testified, they reuse them. The chances are excellent that you won't even know you've been investigated until a suit is filed. And if you are legit, you won't know at all.

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Author:	Cueball [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
timberlea @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:32 pm wrote: The chances are excellent that you won't even know you've been investigated until a suit is filed. And if you are legit, you won't know at all. Not true... from what several have written about already. People that are legit also received those letters of intent. 2 people in this forum have already stated that. One said he was going to court to fight SC, and the other... well, read the 2 URL's that I provided in the previous post. And then there was the first cases that told us about (I think it was in Oregon), where 1 person named wasn't even operating on a Computer or CAVs unit, but was still operating with CDGs... He was named because the Investigator saw a CAVs machine there, and just assumed the KJ was using it.

Author:	karaokegod73 [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
I got an 8148 from ebay and a few other discontinued disks. I often am on the lookout for discontinued disks (except the newer ones that had MediaCloq and are useless.

Author:	JoeChartreuse [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
jamkaraoke @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:55 pm wrote: Gathering information on the other discussion it seems pretty certain the SC investigation is in my home state. In reading the many posts about this it seems even the LEGAL PC KJ's are being hassled into proving their legality. Can someone explain without the ARGUMENTS what actual happens when a SC investigator visits your show? Do I need to start bringing my cases of discs to every show now ? Do they come in and steal your books? Make a list of every SC song you play ? What actually happens ????? again from the people who know * Not a discussion if its right or wrong ..pick one of the other hundred discussions for that What actually happens ids based on the actual suit- Trademark Infringement- not piracy. They can't sue for piracy because they don't own the music. Someone comes to a show. If they note that it's PC based, and the SC logo is displayed, the letter of intent goes out. Period. Why? Because technically, the media shift makes the logo a COPY, and they use that technicality. AFTER the letter of intent is sent- with no investigation- they will request an audit. You know how it goes from there...

Author:	Lonman [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
cueball @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:53 pm wrote: timberlea @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:32 pm wrote: The chances are excellent that you won't even know you've been investigated until a suit is filed. And if you are legit, you won't know at all. Not true... from what several have written about already. People that are legit also received those letters of intent. But it may be the reason was the books looked suspicious & until they went through the audit to say HEy I bought every disc (which more than likely they do not carry to each show) then I could see it happening. Quote: 2 people in this forum have already stated that. One also stated as soon as she showed all the originals the suit was dropped. If you own the originals, there shouldn't be anything to worry about.

Author:	timberlea [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
Cuey, I should have said until contacted rather than filed suit.

Author:	Lone Wolf [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: How to Spot an SC Investigator ?
theCheese @ Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:22 pm wrote: What keeps the pirate for looking in his history and just buying the SoundChoice discs in question he/she played on that night? How many unique songs is it even possible to play in a 4 hour show? 240 minutes.. even if you played every song back to back with no pause between singers that's a maximum of 80 songs. Unless you were playing tracks that are out of print/no longer available/can't find anywhere.. seems like it would be pretty easy to determine what tracks they're accusing you of playing and then picking them up. Seems like that investigation would have to go on for far longer than a single evening. On another forum SC (Kurt) explained how one KJ that was served did just that and somehow SC found out that he had been buying discs like crazy from places like Ebay and local retailers. Didn't help him to buy all the discs as they had the proof that he had the music before he bought the discs.