Karaoke Forums

Um, it didn't quite go that way. There was a CAVS unit on the premises-period. No one witnessed it in use for karaoke, because it never was. No one witnessed the HOST using the machine for karaoke, because he was DISC BASED. Since he was disc based, no one witnessed a display of trademark from anything but discs- not a PC, or not the CAVS.

Therefore, in order to have any thought of a case at all, someone had to have LIED.

Otherwise, one would have to think that merely owning a pc, or having a PC on any premises anywhere would be grounds for a trademark infringement suit.

BTW- No one has ever questioned the buying, selling, of having ownership of a CAVS machine, any more than they have done the same for a PC. Any questions that have arisen were in regard to machine content and usage- which again, was never witnessed at McCleod's.

"Believing" that a system is pirated isn't actionable by ANYONE'S standards. It must be witnessed in use, and even by SC's standards, their logo must be witnessed displayed from a non-original source.

Someone lied. My question is: Was the penalty of perjury applied, as stated by HarringtonLaw? I'm guessing no- at least not by SC.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

"Simply submitting to an audit" is your characterization and well within your right to do so. However, I don't look at it the same way and that is well within my right to do so. So we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

There you go again with "my customers" when you actually mean "my singers." The singers don't pay you do they? Why don't you just tell all your "singer/customers" to grab a six pack and come over to your house? They can pay you, drink and sing.... it will be cheaper for them and you won't have to move equipment.

I never said that I was the "main attraction" at my shows - you did. So let's not rush to pin those pompous and arrogant labels where they don't belong. What I did say is that my shows (if I have any), are not dependent on any label of karaoke disc and the absence of any particular brand doesn't affect my business. Obviously, that's not true with you and where you live because you are again saying how dependent you are on them to keep your "customers" (which are really the singers) happy. So I'm asserting that you believe the majority of importance (or "draw") is placed on the labels of disc you have and nothing else. Your shows then are apparently the "performer" type where each singer is a "star" as opposed to mine where it's a "party place" and the emphasis is on the fun and not on the "music."

And your point is what? Would like copy of a photo? The difference here in my opinion, is that I won't "rollover" like you to allow any manufacturer to demand to search my property. These same manufacturers wouldn't rollover to your demands to search their records for licensing would they? Of course not. You're the only one so willing to be the performing puppy in this scenario. Now that's a kodak moment!


And the venue owner is the only one that pays you. The sad part is that you feel that in order to remain successful you have to not only cow tow to what the "singers" (not customer) tell you to buy but that you're so willing to rollover for the manufacturers. I see that you're all about making everyone happy - even at your own expense even though you can't see it.

Happy Trails is right.

A quick question: Except for tiny 750 piece run of a single disc in- I think- 2009, they haven't put any new tracks in something like 4 years or more.

What brand(s) of discs do you buy to keep your library current?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

we have 2 different customers in my mind. the bar owners who want us to help draw drinkers in, and the paying drinkers (aka singers) who want something.
by giving the singers what they like, they spend money at the bar and the bar owner is happy. the singers can have me over to their house for a private party and do not need the bar owner to help at all, the bar owner can not do anything without the singers. that is why, at least in my mind, the singers are my first priority, and the bar owners have been more than receptive to "do what you think will bring them in"
yes the bar owners pay me, but with the same cash that just came out of the singers pocket 10 minutes earlier.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Sorry you see it that way but it was an inappropriate question to ask in the first place. If CB is so interested, they can find out for themselves I have no incentive to tell them - by way of "Tipster Rumbolt", or WallOfSound's pushiness - anything about my business. The easiest things to do if you don't get an answer is (like wallofsound) state that it's "suspicous and warrants an investigation" (that's gonna scare me into answering somehow?) or that something's being "hidden" - a typical thunder tactic. And of course the "shame, shame you bad little boy" maturity response.
So why is there so much interest in whether or not I use CB? It doesn't affect any single KJ that wants to know either way... I don't compete with Tipster Rumbolt, WallOfSound, Spotlighjr or even you. It certainly seems like there's a race of some sort to get the answer and it's no holes barred on how to get an answer.

Why isn't there just as much fervor in finding out whether or not I "have a horse in the race?" KjAthena posted that little gem months ago simply to trash my credibility and has yet to do anything about confirming or denying this important fact. Why don't you tell her to get off her duff and get busy?


And I also respect your opinion on how you would handle similar issues.
Let me put it this way; CB does not "threaten my business" whether I use them or not.

And exactly by what means does a venue pay you. Well let's see. He pays you through the money he or she receives from *gasp* his or her patrons. Patrons don't buy, the venue goes out of business. So yes, the patrons are our customers. They come in and keep them happy with our offerings.

There are Republicans, Democrats, Conservatives, Liberals, Socialists, and of course everyone's favourite - the Contrarian.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

If the money comes only from the patrons then you must be working on a percentage of the till then and not a fixed fee because on those bad weather or just plain slow nights someone is losing something. But then, it all averages out doesn't it? There are unbelievable crazy-busy nights where they make a ton, but it doesn't filter back down to you.



You spelled "the Canadian" wrong....

Joe,
On this one you are wrong. Since all this has taken place I have spoken to the former kj the was running the show at McLeods, and he does in fact own all the disc (he displayed them on tv, too). He did not know of the potential of not having his disc with him would cause the "misunderstanding" He did have them loaded into a Cavs machine so at the time the investigation was happening there were no disc present (visible). Kinda like having a laptop without the disc present. So unless you were there on that night the investigator was there, you know nothing of the actual investigation. Give it a rest, that case is closed and over with and no one except you and a few others still have their feathers up over that one. In summery: The KJ still works (reputation still intact) the bar owner (has since closed the venue for another reason) and is into other ventures and SC indentified a working legit kj and not a thief but in the process also found 2 venues (Blue Chips and Jimmy's Southern Pub) that were not so clean. So where is the problem?

You know what, please don't answer that. I know you don't like the "tactics".
I sure as hell do and I guess at the very least we agree to disagree.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I'm not sure why you think it's a bad idea to get pirates legal. There is demand for karaoke services at a reasonable rate that far exceeds the number of legal KJs available to meet that demand. What we are trying to do is to force pirates out of the business OR make them compete on level terms with legal operators. Over time, rates should rise as some pirates leave the business and others have to recoup what they pay the manus to get legal.[/quote]

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Thank you, that's all I've been saying!

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

There you go again with "my customers" when you actually mean "my singers." The singers don't pay you do they? Why don't you just tell all your "singer/customers" to grab a six pack and come over to your house? They can pay you, drink and sing.... it will be cheaper for them and you won't have to move equipment.


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Chip you don't think singers are customers, seriously? Let me tell you how we conduct our business at my day job.

When it comes to customers,,,, give them what they want when they want it in the amount they want it (good quality is implied). Anything above that is not value added and is a waste.

If there are no singers and no watchers, why would an owner keep you? You are there to make him money, you do that by making the singers and watchers and drinkers happy to stay there. They are every bit your customer as is the owners.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

From my experience while you need singers there numbers are not as important as keeping the bar full. When the bar is full then that is where the money is. If the venue host states that I don't have many singers on a given night, I point to the bar which is full. Many singers want the mic in their hand every 30 to 45 minutes, or they start to lose interest. Many of the serious singers that bring their own discs, drink soda any way, that is why some venues charge $5.00 for a coke or more. Generally speaking as long as the bar totals are up there is never a problem with the bottom line owners.

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Thank you, that's all I've been saying![/quote]


Did I ever say making pirates legal was a bad idea. I just think there is a better way of achieving that goal, that would be less time consuming, more effective and less damaging to the industry as a whole. Harrington is not really running all pirates out of business, only the ones that can pay retail or otherwise for the SC product. They are not going after the 50.00 and beer small fry. Rather they are going after the better capitalized operations and the respective venues who employ them. They are out to recover for SC the most they can at the least expense to their client. Harrington is not on some sort of crusade, they are looking out for the best interests of SC, which they are paid to do simple. If the legal hosts get any good from all of this, it is just a secondary result. Rates will not rise if we hit a double dip recession, in fact everything could become more difficult than it is, as venues close, when people have less disposable income for entertainment.

Don't get me wrong here: if you're a manufacturer, it's a GREAT idea.... the problem I have is the manufacturer financing a pirate to become your competitor... all the while claiming they are "helping you."

Please explain how creating more competitors is helping you...

Why not make them customers, what other market do they currently have that is viable? That is why the plan is to make all hosts who use their product pay, one way or another.

Oh, so KJ Jim McGaha, who was never named in the suit, had all his discs copied into a CAVS machine, which has a hard drive, creating a copied Sound Choice trademark without the permission of Sound Choice with no discs present during the investigation?

Thank god I requested an audit & got permission from Sound Choice to copy their trademark onto my computer before an investigator came into my show & saw my computer with those copied SC trademarks from my original discs that I don't bring to the shows! I did my audit remotely via Skype video. I guess McGaha kind of did the same via WBIR video & was cleared.

http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.as ... ovider=rss

It appears that Hershel Earls, owner of MacLeods, bent the truth a little in the news report stating "I'm not 100% sure that their investigator has actually been in my door. There is no way he could have thought we had a computer, watching him (Jim) put discs in,"

So rumbolt, you are saying that Jim McGaha told you that he usually would not be handling discs & just was playing off the CAVS hard drive? Can you please clarify this? Thanks.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

c. staley, this is not creating MORE competitors.

This is forcing UNFAIR competitors to play FAIR.

They already exist, and they are damaging the industry by theft.

Are you suggesting that by forcing a thief to settle and/or pay up, harm is being done to the legit operator?

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Never the same show twice!

1) Are you actually saying that all PC hosts must not only carry their discs, but have them visible at all times to avoid problems from SC? Seriously?

Even the other Cheerleaders will tell you that this isn't true. Do you think even they all carry their discs to each and every show, while using a PC to host? The reason most of them claimed they switched was because they didn't WANT to do that very thing.

2) You skipped the main point. I don't know if he had the discs loaded into the CAVS or not, and it simply doesn't make any difference. No one WITNESSED that machine in use-period. He used DISCS for hosting the show. For SC to have focused their attention there, and then followed up, some one had to have LIED, and claim that they DID witness both the machine in use, and SC's logo displayed on screen from that machine. There really is no way around that.

One can OWN a loaded HD and have it in their PC, but if it is never used in a show, then even SC has no issue.

From the Nov. 2009 news story from an NBC affiliate:
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Late Thursday afternoon, an attorney for Sound Choice Studios confirmed to 10News they plan to drop their lawsuit against Macleod's. He said an investigator working for Sound Choice entered Macleod's and mistakenly thought a CAVS System, used to play general musicin the bar, was being used for karaoke." ( My bolds )
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He never saw the machine used for karaoke- Period. Therefore, there was absolutely no cause for problems forom SC- unless the investigator originally claimed differently to SC.

3) You sure as hell LIKE these tactics?

Yup, we'll have to disagree.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe really needs to take me off ignore.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

So, when a customer(that's what they are) asks me for a song they've been singing for years (SC track) that I've gotten permission to legally play I'm to tell them what???? Sorry, we no longer will play those tracks because they are big bad bullies? What if that same customer asks for the CB version of that song??? Sorry they also are on our "do not play list".
I mean, Stellar is right behind SC and CB. Does that mean you put up another poster saying you wont play them either?

Then to top it all off you tell me that I'm cowing down to my customers by trying to accommodate their requests. This is what a "host" does. By being attentive to their needs they return over and over and even bring friends with them. I have many of the same singers I started with several years ago. Sounds like a pretty good business plan to me.

Perhaps your idea of bringing people over to your house and gettin' a 6pack could work for you. If you treat customers/singers or whatever you call them the way you say, you could probably fit your entire following in your living room.

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Sound Choice and Chartbuster Certified

You have to agree that it's certainly not reducing the number of competitors either... the only entity being "helped" here is SC and not the "legit KJ's" who have never stolen anything.

Consequently, my point is that they're enabling the pirates and rewarding them for their past theft by allowing them to continue in this business on financed terms..