Karaoke Forums

ok, i think i got it, so at the time they sign for licensing with the owners of the copywrite (publishers, writers, etc.) they specify that "i will be doing 2000 cd+g and 2000 downloads" and the appropriate charge for that number of copies is calculated and paid. is this in the same manner as the download sites for V.J.'s downloading the new Shakira video? they pay "X" dollars for 2000 downloads of that audio/visual work with synced video and "Y" dollars for 2000 dvd discs of the same work? if i got that right, i may actually be following you here. (thanks for your patience Moon)

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

That's close enough for government work They can also work a deal like: "We plan to offer a permanent download of this work. Here's the good faith payment for the first X downloads, and we'll report quarterly on the totals and remit payments after that number is exceeded."

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Dave's not here.

Don't know whether they are or not, just following a famous general's advice: "Prepare for your adversary's capability, not his actions.

As for the other very oft-repeated repetitive redundancy of your post: If one owns and uses the manufactures original discs, all responsibility rests on the mfrs. shoulders.

That was the point made throughout this thread, if you had read it before posting.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I didn't say there were no download licenses. If there weren't, places like Amazon, iTunes, and Napster wouldn't exist.

What I said was that there is no blanket style download license as has been drafted in the UK that specifically gives permission to use the downloads in a U.S. based show. It doesn't exist, no one has shown it, and the mfrs. won't claim it. Why wouldn't they, if they had it? It would only do them good.

I stand by my statement- no such blanket licensing exists, and so far, no centralized agency has stepped up to draft it.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

And of course, it's the "honor system" on how many discs they really pressed and sold, how many downloads actually take place etc....

I doubt the numbers ever match.

i don't know what i'm missing here Joe. what makes a video synced to a song downloadable for commercial use in the U.S. and graphics synced to a song not downloadable for commercial use?
a blanket download license is required for lyrics synced to music but not video synced to music? that just makes no sense to me.
Korn made a video for "Another Brick In The Wall". they paid to re-record it, then made a video , synced them together and i can download the result for commercial use in a U.S. based club. CB paid to re-record "Toes" then sync the lyrics to it, but since it is called karaoke it can not download the result for commercial use in a U.S. based show?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Joe is confused.

It appears that it's okay for Joe to use unlicensed SuperCore songs on disc but not okay using licensed Zoom or Sunfly songs that got the songwriters & publishers paid in an mp3+g format which can be downloaded for commercial use approved by the very people who manufactured them.

Sounds really hypocritical to me!

So Joe, when are you going to remove all your SuperCore from your library? Wasn't it wrong for whoever produced those discs to steal from the songwriters & publishers of that music? Are they not illegal as well in the U.S. like SC8125? Remember all of your opinions on that one not to mention not using Sound Choice anymore based on principle of their tactics against KJs who happen to run mp3+g files on computer?

That's right, according to most, SC8125 is ILLEGAL because the proper rights were not obtained just like every SuperCore disc. Isn't this correct Joe?

BTW, I just love your new disclaimer regarding SuperCore here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21560&p=300919&hilit=+SuperCore#p300919

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

So your point is that SC8125 and all the other unlicensed songs that manufacturers have been sued for are legal even though the "proper rights were not obtained?"

You'll justify the manufacturers piracy at every turn.

On Joe's Behalf (sorry if i am overstepping Joe) his position on the Supercore discs, 8125, etc. is that as they are on original manu discs, they are the manu's problem. The manu got paid for the disc, if they did not turn that money to pay the license holder, their problem. he is stating that he believes that with downloads, they are NOT manu original product and therefore are the K.J.'s problem for licensing, not the manu's anymore. our current discussion is why the downloads are less original when called karaoke as opposed to music videos.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Maybe there is middle ground. Downloads might fall on the person or persons that made the actual format shift, whether it be the manufacturer or the distributer. If you think about it that could be the defense of the end user.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

No, there is no difference since the problem lies with the songwriter/publisher whether it be CDG disc or mp3+g.

Here is the email from a manu, who made karaoke versions of songs & has them available for download on KaraokeDownloads.ca (Tricerisoft)

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21782&p=303100&hilit=+sundown#p303100

Now if the songs are not licensed to the manu, then it's the manu's problem, correct?

I guess I'll have to contact Zoom & Sunfly as well but I think someone already did that. If so, please post link.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

The manufacturer can shift their content into any form they want. It could be on a vinyl disc, or magnetic tape if they want. Surely all media has been shifted from one form to another throughout history by the rights holder. From film negative, to film print, to video tape, to laser disc, to DVD, & now to whatever you get downloaded from NetFlix.

It appears that the content on SBI & KaraokeDownloads.ca most likely have been delivered in the format for download from the manu themselves. At least that appears to be the case with New Zealand's Sundown Karaoke as stated in the link I provided in the above post.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

The difference, as far as I can tell, is companies like Zoom, Sunfly & SBI have obtained their permission directly from the copyright holders which means when they hold the MASTER rights to their own tracks. In other words they have control over the music AND the lryrics swipe. This means that these companies have the right to do whatever they want with their tracks and the fact that there are no specific laws to say that there use is legal or not, it doesnt matter they already have the permission from the copyright holders.

Tricerasoft has made the same claim, and I imagine it would be easy enough to check. Persoanlly i dont have the time or energy to bother at this juncture because I am no longer hosting.

Now whether Sundown tracks would be legal to use would depend solely on wether Tricerasoft has the right to sell these tracks for KJ USE as they claim
-james

The email I received from Sundown states that Tricerisoft does have that right.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

That is not what I am refering to. Tricerasoft claims that they have a separate licence from the copyright owners that allows them to sell digital downloads for KJ USE *in other words it incudes all the rights needed for the music AND the lyrics.

If this is truly the case, then it doesnt matter where the track is downloaded from because all the rights are covered.

The reason I bring up this distinction is because I do not know if Sundown owns the MASTER rights to their tracks *music and lryics* like the other overseas Manufacturers do.

the legallity of using their tracks would fall to local copyright law *there is none* OR a pre-existing contract *which they claim to have*

-James

I get it. The KJ would only have to worry about the songwriter/publishers coming after them which doesn't seem to be happening. If they were after us, myself as well as anyone else using SuperCore or RadioStarz, whether it be on disc or mediashifted, would be getting notified.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

Nope. What you are missing, or are not getting from me- is that this is not a downloading issue. It is a usage issue.

If ( that's IF ) a mfr. actually paid all the licensing fees, I'm sure that they could download, just as iTunes does. What they CAN'T DO, stated again- is grant the downloader any permission to use in a U.S. based karaoke show- because THEY DON'T OWN THE MUSIC.

The MUSIC OWNERS could grant you that permission, were you to seek them out for each track and negotiate- NO ONE ELSE CAN.

Also, unless you also got documentation downloaded with that Korn video, I wouldn't be to sure you have permission. Who granted it to you specifically? Korn? Their copyright holder? You have documentation from the music OWNER? If you do, than good to go. If all you have is something from a site owner, it's worthless.

See what I'm saying?

Amazon, Napster, and iTunes offer downloads, but even DJs have no specific permission for commercial use. At this point, no one cares, and it's a non-issue

Karaoke is a smaller, more specific market, and losses make up a larger percentage- people are starting to care. So far, no owners have done anything, but I wouldn't bet on it lasting forever..

I'll say it again. Show me a karaoke site that will be willing to download text giving permission for use in U.S. based shows. They can't. Not only that, but they SAY they can't. Hence, the "Home Use Only" disclaimers and such. On top of that, SC and CB have stated here and on their sites what they can and cannot authorize. However, if they did, at least the KJ can then pass on liability to the site owner.

Some SC discs have an extra track that's a blurb/text. It would be absolutely no problem for a download site to include a document with each track granting permission for it's commercial use.

BTW- this goes for those karaoke mfrs who claim to have completely licensed tracks as well- they could include THEIR licensing documentation just as easily.

It's about USAGE, not the act of downloading.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Well I agree. So using tracks from a SuperCore disc, in a commercial show, can get a KJ in trouble with the songwriter/publisher.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

The manus own the rights to their re-recording of the song, Just as Korn owns the rights to the re-recording of their song. neither owns the original song, but can give me permission to use their re-recording, which the original owners gave them permission to make, in any way they like. Otherwise The Fugees can not give any manu permission to re-make their version of "Killing Me Softly" since they do not own the original rights and therefore can not give permission to use. Of course they can, the own the rights to their re-recorded version of it, same as the manus own the rights to their re-recorded version.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Paradigm, exactly. For example all the masters' (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, etc) music is public domain, meaning anyone can use it. However if anyone (London Symphony or local school or whoever) records it, then they own those recordings and no one can use it without permission.

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You can be strange but not a stranger