Karaoke Forums

STOP talking about SYNC - you have no idea about licensing. SYNC does not concern a KJ. SYNC is a license the manufacturer pays when they MAKE the song. ALL manufactures PAY sync to either publisher direct or agency (which work to pay the publisher). When you pay MECHANICAL to duplicate a DISC, it covers the whole license (called Master Rights). When you sell it as a download you pay a "PERFORMANCE" and a "ROYALTY". PERFORMANCE is for the audio and the lyrics of the artistic original, YES with LYRICS. The ROYALTY is for the WHOLE master from the manufacturer. We have THREE licenses (not ONE) and each have addon or "AMENDMENT" letters to cover KARAOKE with wording as follows (WE WORKED HARD FOR THESE!):

"The definition of Musical Work shall be amended in respect of the Karaoke Service only to read as follows (additional words in italics):

“Musical Work” means any musical work (as defined in the Act) and any lyrics or words (including in graphical form) written to be used with such musical work (if applicable). It includes any part of such work.""

OHHHH!!! LOOK WE HAVE PROPER LICENSING <I would swear here but that's not nice!>! So PIDDLE OFF ABOUT SYNC! If you don't want to go digital then stay in the dark ages, but you can go digital with us confidently. We are and shall always remain the first and ONLY FULLY legal MP3+G karaoke downloads supplier.

OH, yeah, almost forgot - we are role models for download sites on the websites of the associations - LOOK:

http://www.socan.ca/jsp/en/pub/music_cr ... DSites.jsp

Bravo TriceraSoft1

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

I saw the statement, however never saw a link - would you happen to have a link to this law>? But if that is the case, then a Sound Choice custom disc would no longer be legal since they would need to be imported to the US from Aus.
I don't see current out of country discs in some of my normal source US retailers, but you can still order & get the discs directly from the manu. over there.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You are the last person I intended to argue with about this. But since you point out I have no idea about licensing, I have a question. I believe you have stated before that your downloads are covered by HFA.

On the HFA site it states:

"Note: An HFA mechanical license does not include the right to display or reprint lyrics or the right to print sheet music. Nor does it cover any use of the song or lyrics in karaoke or "CD+G" products. For these rights, you must contact the publisher(s) directly."

http://www.harryfox.com/public/Mechanic ... seslic.jsp (about 3/4 of the way down the page)

I am an attorney, but I know very little about IP law. Please elaborate.

I am sorry to tell you, the agencies give custom licenses for karaoke (not meant to sound sarcastic) - we have them or I wouldn't be telling you this (you should be familiar with the word "Amendment")!

The import thing by the way is NOT a law, it is a publisher limitation that was made to MCPS for the manufacturers on creating discs with licensing DISCS for USA. Guess who caused the publishers to get so pieved that the decision was made (ONLY applies to DISC mechanical licensing)! All that means is that the UK manufacturers have to go direct to license from the USA publisher instead of utilizing the agency, which they are. So it just caused an inconvenience to slow them down. It just gets more expensive (USA publishers require a larger advance, agencies do not).

BTW: This whole post was not directed at you, it was for everyone that talked about SYNC like they knew what it was. And to inform and stop the guessing (bad guessing I may add).

@Lonman

You should split tricerasofts post and sticky it as a FAQ to import downloads.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Please don't feel "sorry" to tell me this. This is good news to me. I am a big fan. I currently use your downloads, and have for years. I would love to take a look at one of those custom licenses.

This is a very interesting point and basically nullifies the arguments made over & over again by a certain few.

So if we are NOT commercial use and NOT home use, what are we?

Public Performance of a work.

As Tricerasoft has so eloquently pointed out( ) . . .

a) Mechanical licenses need to be purchased by the manufacturer. They're not a KJ's problem. EVER.

b) Sync Licenses need to be purchased by the manufacturer. They're not a KJ's problem. EVER.

c) Publishing Licenses need to be purchased by the manufacturer. They're not a KJ's problem. EVER.

d) Licensing for downloads IS available even in the USA, and needs to be purchased by the manufacturer. They're not a KJ's problem. EVER.

e) Performance licenses need to be purchased by the venue. They're not a KJ's problem unless they OWN or LEASE the venue.

f) The KJ IS responsible for making a good faith effort to purchase their music from properly licensed sources. IP owners will not go after ANYONE who can demonstrate they have done so.

Personally, as an IP owner, I will not seek punitive damages against those who were deceived into FIRST offenses of unintentional infringement (e.g loaded hard drives), and will only seek injunctive relief if this good faith effort can be verified. After that I will expect you to know better, and I'll hand you your a$$ on a platter.

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Dave's not here.

They were dropped of the web site and now thay are back up, so maybe cut virgin some slack. I just saw they were back up too!

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I have mentioned that to them

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I am sure that if you bought those downloads that were allowed for commerical according to the TOS and you have purchase proof, it is doubtful that Chartbuster has interest in coming after you. Just my opinion.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Commericial just means you are making money. Thus using any music used in a show is commercial use, because as kj's we do this for money.
Copyright laws talk about Private (Home) use and Commercial use.
Like asked above, we aren't doing this for home/private use, you state that kj's are not commercial - what are we.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I must say...

This is the best damn thread period.

Tricerasoft, I commend you on your blunt, matter of fact and verifiable statements.

As I understand it, I am not using karaoke tracks in a commercial way. I am using them for public performance which is a "use" right granted by the owners of the music when they allowed the karaoke mfr to license their product in the first place. I am not reproducing, altering, or selling each individual track. I contract my services and am compensated financially for my time. No tangible goods change hands while I perform my services.

TANGENT--> What if, similar to Toqer, I was charging $ for each track played?

I agree with Toqer that Tricerasoft's statements should become a "sticky".

Also, a nod to Moonrider for his pertinent input, specifically from an IP owner/rights holder. PAY for your tracks. Do your DUE DILIGENCE to ascertain a legitimate source for those tracks. DO NOT violate the terms or rights granted/reserved once you've purchased said tracks.

Lastly, I'd like to say that I also agree that the sky is NOT falling. So much of the vitriol spewed about here is contingent on the threat of the mfr's leaving the KJ's hanging in the wind if the big bad music owners come-a-callin'. Simply put, it ain't gonna happen. Let's face it, the KJ's are the bottom of the $food$ chain in this industry. The music owners are certainly capable of cutting the $food$ supply upriver before resorting to fly fishing for guppies. Why would they? They like $food$ just as much as the rest of us. The only reason that I can think of that a music owner would come after a KJ, would be in the instance of gross, willful piracy (duplication, resale, multi-rigging, hd distribution) and if a KJ is doing that, they aren't really a KJ, that is just a convenient "front".

It makes sense to me. I am perfectly comfortable using whatever mfr's karaoke product I have purchased. I am not particularly concerned with the format that I "use" it in, because I've paid for it, I've done my due diligence with regard to legal sourcing and I haven't violated any music owners' rights.

If I understand the change in the law correctly, it means that US based distributors cannot distribute foreign licensed karaoke. Is that correct? This only seems to penalize the US distributor as it forces the consumer to purchase directly from foreign outlets which is totally legal to do as a consumer. If so, that doesn't have anything to do with the country of manufacture of the physical media (if any) as long as the licensing is valid in the country of sale. Someone mentioned free trade and I can see how that relates to my purchasing Sunfly CD+G's from the UK and shipping them to the US. These aren't Cuban cigars. As far as I know, karaoke is not contraband.

Anyway, I'll say it again... this thread really has my interest...

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Never the same show twice!

I already mentioned this to Toqer that a song sold in a jukebox requires the same license as a Download called a "Jukebox" license (for karaoke a specific "karaoke jukebox license" is required) and a royalty - a song played is treated exactly like a download but generally a lower fee (selling the song outright is commercial even if untangable). To sell songs in a jukebox you must first get the jukebox license (very similar to the Performance license we pay) to pay the artist and you must agree with the manufacturer on the royalty of the master being charged for. Same applies for the owner of the venue, they must have a cover license as well if the jukebox is entertaining guests and they are making money from them listening - nothing changes here. An entertainer gets paid a flat rate for entertainment (basically you are only paid for your time), they are not making unlimited commercial gain per song and besides the fee for "use" is already paid for assuming you are an entertainer using it as such - if you are not (i.e. you are robot dispencing songs or feel like one) or you require more out of your tracks (i.e. recording singers, editing songs, reselling them, offering copies to the customers, etc), then get the proper permission from the manufacturer which is as straight forward as it gets (if additional licensing is required they WILL inform you).

What they are referring to only pertains to the MCPS (or PRS) agency (which is only for the UK manufacturers) in which MCPS is no longer permitting or allowing the license territory of DISCs (Mechanical Media) to cover USA territory. However if you obtain the license direct from the publisher (which is in the USA) the license becomes WORLDWIDE or "universal" (because they own the Copyright) and as long as you have big bucks for an advance you are good to go. Manufacturers including Sunfly have already gone direct and this doesn't bother them. They are not happy because all that did is give them more paperwork, but they don't care.

However just for laughs, karaoke is Sooo popular in Vietnam that in their import/export laws it lists karaoke as a taxable export (discs and tapes ofcourse).

And in the US Juke fees are paid to ASCAP/BMI/SESAC. Having handled these bills for the 7b over the years, I know for a fact there are two checkboxes. One for "Live" Entertainment, and one for "Jukebox" Entertainment.

There's 2 ways of having a license for a juke.

1. Venue pays it.
2. Juke manu pays it. 90% of the time this is the way it goes, since a pizza parlor with a juke suddenly doesn't want to be liable for these fees. It also makes it easier for the Juke manu to just "Ship boxes" without having to go through and get licensing for every single venue that might not have one.

Which brings up another very interesting, philosophic, grey area. Is someone singing a song off a "Jukebox" live entertainment or a juke?

I actually posed this question to a rep at SESAC. The initial rep couldn't answer me, so they had to escalate it all the way up to some guy who's name I can't recall. He told me we're classified as "Live Music". What we charge for is access to our mics, stage, sound system.

Nobody is going to pay $1 to sing on a magic mic.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Well they are hiring entertainment, but the company they are hiring would have to have the said discs/music in question, without it, they would not be making money. So I am in fact making money in a public establishment (not private) solely because of the music that I provide (commercial gain per song?) - because without it, i'd be out of a job completely.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Congress made these fee's solely the responsibility of the venue, never the entertainer. By law, not our problem.

Any mod (Jian too) please split/sticky tricera's post. It'd be a shame for this info to get buried in time.

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Living my life as Robert Cortese, 162 E. Jackson St, San Jose CA.

It's like the difference between high and low budget toilet paper, it really doesn't matter in the end. -exweedfarmer

Which is smarter? Just sticking to making/selling karaoke, while people all over the world create software FOR FREE that helps you sell it, or trying to compete with them and keeping it a closed loop while you blow your money into an industry (software) that you(the karaoke manu) knows nothing about?
-me

Also it would appear that the difference of a performer getting paid is merely a performance vs recording a singer & selling them the recording would be commercial.

As I've always known, recording a singers performance, using any manus backing track, then selling it without permission from the manu, would be infringement.

So it seems that just allowing a human access to the mics & amplification is not infringing on the backing track that is audible, being mixed & amplified, at the same time the singer sends sounds into the mic & sound waves are strewn into the atmosphere.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

One more thing to add. Recording the singer without a mechanical license AND permission from the manufacturer, then giving or selling the singer the recording would be considered unapproved commercial use of the track, AND recording an unlicensed cover.

Two instances of infringement.

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Dave's not here.