Karaoke Forums

There is a different between commercial use and public use. I know the law in my country but am not too sure how those two terms are defined in the US.

Over here, 'commercial use' means. the use of an IP material in jingles for advert, movies and TV etc. It does not include KJ/DJ works which is considered as public use/performance. That is covered by separate licenses which the premise need to have before any music can be played there; not a KJ's responsibility. it seems there is a confusion in the use of these terms.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

All I can say is that most of my songs I do have CDs for, and the exceptions are ones that I have bought (and paid what appears to be the market rate) from what appear to be legal download sites.

My problem (and admitted hostility on the subject) is that many in the industry including some manus and many KJs seem to wish to treat me as a pirate because I run on a computer. I have invested somewhere between $20,000 and $25,000 on songs alone, and I know I could have at many times bought a much more extensive (and better) songlist for less than 2% of what I have invested If I had chosen to be a pirate. If I am going to be treated as a pirate anyway, I could do that for a lot cheaper, and I am not a rich person.

I have over 600 different Soundchoice disks on which I have spent well over $10,000, but because of my extensive selection of songs from SC and the fact that many are out of print, I fear I fit the SC profile for a "PIRATE".

If according to the many fliers in the SC disks they are threatening to sue me for $750 for each format shifted song which would be nearly $750,000, even though all my disks are 1:1.

Those that are caught in the net because they run a computer show and have an extensive library that is 1:1 have ZERO to fear from the SC investigator. Just go through the audit when you get the letter of intent and like KJathena, you'll get through it, be dropped from further action and that is that.
Just because you might fit the profile of a pirate doesn't make you one.
AGAIN IF YOU ARE 1:1 COMPLIANT YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR.
SC is only going to continue the legal proceedings if you a: don't respond to the letter of intent to sue B: choose to take it to court or in the discovery phase are found not to have a 1:1 ratio of songs to discs.

_________________
The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

all makes very good sense, thanks for the clarification. i do know that i am 100% 1:1 compliant, so for me it is not so much a fear of the audit, as it would make me so angry to be basically told "you are a theif until you prove otherwise, i have no proof, but you are still a theif". all my regulars know i will only play original disks. but that made me think, if they buy a download legaly and want to sing it on my system, isn't that ok? it is their personal legal download for personal use and i am not getting a copy, just playing it for them on my system instead of theirs. i got a guy who gets downloads from several sites (select-a-track, sunfly, etc.) and just gets the instant downloads and burns the disk himself with all his tracks. can't i play his "home burn" with all legal songs?

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Yeah sorry to say those songs you don't have an original disc for (from any manu) are not legally produced, no matter how much you like to believe they since you paid for them. I could care less if you run on a computer as long as you have the originals or legal source (such as the Gem series) to back them up. If you have all that, I as a company could care less if you are running a computer. It's those computer users that do no have those origina;s to back a thing up is what gets me. I know a few used to be "legit" companies around here the felt the same way that bought those preloaded hard drives & say WTF...nobody is enforcing the rules, why should I comply.
So what if you fit the profile, show the original discs & you will be fine from what i've been told from those who have went through it. It's what you do not have an original for is what will nail you!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I could care less if you are on a computer as Loman said but the sources for your songs might be in question.

These sites that you might be getting you music from are usually not authorized to resell single downloads by SC or CB according to SC or CB (don't take my word for it but call them (the manus) and see what they have to say about it) and besides the sites I have seen in their terms of service do not allow "commercial" or "public" performance of these downloads. Since we are doing this in "public" I think that make us in violation. That is how the download sites get away with it. Besides, most if not all of them are outside United States territory therefore out of the reach of our laws.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

From the GEM Licensing Agreement section 4-C:

"Provided that such media-shifting is otherwise in compliance with the laws of the United States or Canada (as applicable), you may shift the Content stored on each of the Original Media to ONE Non-Original Medium of your choice. You must maintain possession of the Original Media whose Content you have shifted during the entire time the Content is stored on the Non-Original Medium. While the Content has been shifted, you may not use the Original Media for any purpose, commercial or otherwise. If you desire to shift the Content of any of the Original Media to more than one Non-Original Medium, you must acquire one or more additional original discs, so that you maintain a 1-to-1 relationship between original discs and the non-original media. For example, if you want to store the Content of a disc on three hard drives, you must acquire and maintain three original discs."

I have been told by SC and CB that if one of their investigators were to see their logo and song at my show and later during an audit I could be held liable since I do not own that disc.

When you play a customers disc in a show that is a "public" performance, and that would go againt their terms of service. In my shows, I will nolonger play a customers burns. I even have one singer that would bring me copies of factory discs with the face lasered to look like the original. I pulled him aside one night and explained that he had been buying pirated music from a guy at the flea market. He went back to the guy to get his money back and the guy gladly gave him his money back. The guy (pirate vendor) was reported to the flea market management and was banned and reported to the police. All the while the vendor was telling everyone that his stuff was 100% legal. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.........Do your own homework......Call the manus for clairification is the best advise I can give.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

That applies to the GEM series. Also, I say it again, The Manus aren't going to come after you for shifting as long as you maintain 1:1 ratio even with their other discs, but lookout downloaders and those that share even if you pay for a copy, that is a plain as they have made it and still people don't get it.

Thank you for sharing that.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I don't have the time or energy anymore to type out a long winded response. So instead I'm going to smoke this joint, and call it a day.

Hear! Hear!

Now you know why I don't post much these days. Burn a fattie, munch popcorn, and giggle as I read through the silliness.

_________________
Dave's not here.

At least you read through, I don't anymore when the same topic crop up again and again

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Stay in the battle Dude! I know plenty of people here get really tired of the "silliness" but this subject is very serious primarily to those of us that are in this business and it is our sole source of income. I do have a morgage and vehicle payments and I pay for my own health and lilability insurance and report my income. When you can't get additional gigs because those other venues in your area are using a couple of guys that are , without question pirates (on a laptop and no books and has "any song you want are the first clues) and are just plain cheap $100 per night. Both guys are using copies of the same hardrive and one of my venues owner has a copy that they bought a couple of years ago when they were doing it in house until they found out about their liability, they were told by the kj that made the copy that he was licened to do that by the manus. Educate your venues, educate your venues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Refer them to the Dan Stern lawsuit, privide them with all the documantion you can provide. So please don't tell me it is silly, it is real and I will keep on banging the drum of anti-piracy for as long as it is here, they are eating into my bottom line and I have visited several of their shows and my 6 year old grandson could run a better show so don't tell me they might have a good show. If you don't want to be in this discussion then don't, but if you do, we can argue over so called technicalities in the laws but the real truth is that our industry is quickly fading away only to be taken over by the pirates because we are here busting each others chops and that is getting us nowhere.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Very funny.... and very full of crap.

Get off your butt and look on the net at all the copyright suits against Slep-Tone entertainment. Especially the one that includes "The Impossible Dream" and all the others from "Man of La Mancha."

You'll find that the suits prove that SC not only was aware of the licensing process (since they described it on their own web site), but purposely avoided licensing these songs. Read that as "intentional."

I know of a writer/artist personally that SC pirated his music for THREE YEARS before he had to get his attorney to force them to license. This wasn't an oversight, it was intentional.

So, you can quit waving the flag for Sound Choice. Kurt and Derek are NOT angels by any means.

Well it sure was getting lonely with the crickets, Chip! I knew I could count on you to reference the 'holy grail' of your argument. So anyway, I took some time out of my busy flag-waving schedule and sat down to read it AGAIN. Funny, it says the same thing as it did 5 months ago when I read it. Just because a plaintiff's lawyer alleges a conduct was willful, doesn't make it willful.

Do you have a vested interest in Sound Choice falling flat on it's face? Do you truly believe that they're hypocrites? I never once made them out to be angels, but they've done more to combat piracy than ANYONE else has done. They used to produce outstanding karaoke tracks, and that has all but disintegrated on account of the one thing they're making a strong effort to stop. If you and the others wanna continue to bash their efforts or their motives, then so be it. I'm gonna continue applauding their efforts, and help out anyway I can to get rid of the biggest threat to the industry that most of us here count on.

Oops... My mistake. I thought you were asking where the GEM series could be found.

Going by your own statement, you shouldn't be playing anyone's discs then (original or not), because if you get audited, since you didn't own that disc to begin with, you still can't produce it. When you're getting audited, they're (more then likely) NOT going to tell you what they're looking for in your system. What are you going to do?... call up everyone who ever handed you an original disc to play at your show, and ask to borrow it for the day/week/month of time it's going to take to be audited?

RIGHT ON BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Since I run 100% on disc and SC does Know that, I am not worried it I were to be audited. I have had a discussion with Kurt about the liability of playing a burned disc and made the decision a while ago to no longer do that in my shows. The manus do take into account that customers will bring in their own disc but I think if they see a show using disc (all factory originals) then they will keep moving on to the shows that are pc based.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Have there been copyright suits against SC in the last decade? I mean has there been much past Man of La Mancha, The Eagles and the friend who had to go after them? It seems like they started being more careful about licensing to the point that they were taking flak for not being as fast as the other manufacturers in putting out new songs.

In the meantime, several manufacturers have actually gone out of business over the licensing issue. How come SC didn't fall with them if they are so bad? I know Stellar has a suit against them by Viacom just in the past few years. Supposedly CB is fighting some also. Is SC?

I'm not saying that one justifies the other or two wrongs make a right, etc. Just trying to find some consistency in the arguing/attacking. Some of the people that say not to use SC for ethical reasons then recommend Top Tunes, Medacy, Karaoke Bay etc. and they actually were worse, licensing-wise.

Edit: To answer my own question, I have found two references to copyright lawsuits against Slep-Tone in 2006 but can't see the cases to find out what they were about.