Karaoke Forums

We did produce the licenses, CAVS's counsel's false statements to the court notwithstanding. What we declined to do was provide them with free copies of more than 100,000 documents that were of no relevance to the issue. They can come and look at our licenses anytime they like.

Part of the settlement agreement states that they cannot have any pirated material no matter what brand it is on their systems. So they are only entering with 4800 tracks (I believe that was what is being given to them, not the entire GEM series) compared to those who have been around a while and have 10,000 + in their collection. Hardly competition to Chris with his 12,000 songs.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

4800 SC tracks and another 11,000 plus from the CB KJMP HD for $199 puts you at around 16,000 plus tracks. That'd be a pretty decent library.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Read what I said -

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-Chris

For those that settle, they mat end up being my competitor on an even playing field. I don't mind that at all. May the best man win. What I can't do is allow them to continue business as they are without doing something about it. Period.

-Chris

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-Chris

I am actually sitting at just shy of 40,000 licensed, legal tracks which they absolutely can't LEGALLY compete with without spending some money.

-Chris

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-Chris

Chris, my figure for you was ball park because I remeber the purchase of the Chartbuster drives but forgot to add the lots you purchased before getting the drives. You just proved my point that we have nothing to fear from pirates that have settled to remain in business.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

But they have to pay for those songs so I have little probelm with that. ANd if they get the KJ MP HD then they also have to spend the money for Compuhost as well so no skin off my nose.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

my bad chris I apologize . I must have been drowsy when I read it. Kinda like a SC Field investigator Getting a disk guy.

"I am actually sitting at just shy of 40,000 licensed, legal tracks"

how did you get your licencing for everything besides the big 3?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Hiteck stated "CB KJMP HD for $199" what about the 1.49 per song purchased in bulk to unlock the 7000+ songs

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

How long will it take to need all 11000+ songs?

If you have 4,800 SC tracks, worst case scenario you maybe have to buy (hand pick) 30 songs a night, 2 nights a week. 60 songs a week would be $90 a week. That would still spread that purchase out over 3 years for all 11,000+

Just saying it wouldn't be to hard (expensive) to get back in the hosting game with todays options.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

so true Hitech it is so much cheaper now than when we started in the biz

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I would like to know;

1. why my first response was deleted to the above comment?

2. If HarringtonLaw is asserting that CAVS counsel lied to the court -- which is simply another word for "false statement."

You do realize that every legal, new host that comes into the industry pays less that you have over the course of the years you have been in business?

All you seem to ever see is lemons....

The couple of folks I am helping get legal will benefit the local area. I buy discs at a super-low cost, put together a compilation for them, and sell it to them for a profit. I benefit, they benefit, the industry benefits. All without ever dealing with Sound Choice or any of the other manufacturers.

They are also far enough away from me that for the foreseeable future I will not be in direct competition with them. But one of them has approached me about covering some gigs he can't manage because of conflicts. Again, benefits me, benefits his business reputation by meeting his commitments, and benefits the industry by having someone that is legal cover the event instead of a pirate.

You also seem to think that 100% of the pirates will settle, go legal, and stay in business. We all know that isn't the case no matter how you present it. Either way, the pirates will have to get their investment in the new legal library back some way. I don't think they will lower their rates any further. Logic dictates they will have to raise rates. They also have to deal with the stigma of being identified as a pirate in the first place. I do not. The pirates have a hill to climb that you refuse to acknowledge.



I can no more prevent a KJ from getting sued than I can prevent my neighbors house from getting broken into. I can advise my neighbor to get deadbolts, an alarm system, and maybe a large dog, but a determined thief can still get in if they like.

I don't control Sound Choice. They will do what they do.

The cost of the Sound Choice "proof-of-purchase" was negligible. I considered it a cost of doing business.



Fair enough. I will concede that point to you. However, I am not seeing venues shy away from karaoke here. I am sure there are some, but it isn't on a scale that is harming our industry. And Sound Choice has been very active here. Piracy and lawsuit awareness is up and the venues still hire karaoke hosts.



I don't believe I have ever seen Sound Choice ask us to buy discs on the cheap and sell those to KJ's to get them legal. If anything, I would expect that to ruffle a few feathers since I am helping these folks get legal without buying anyting from Sound Choice.

What were legal hosts doing to combat piracy BEFORE the Sound Choice lawsuits came down? I know several KJ's who spoke to venues about piracy years long before Sound Choice took action. I specifically avoid talking about the Sound Choice lawsuits and try to stick to basic moral grounds. Theft is theft. If they will steal from the industry and indirectly steal business from legal hosts, then what might they steal from you?

Remember, I didn't jump into this thread, and attempt to rally the troups behind the Sound Choice banner. I jumped into this thread with the assertion that KJ's weren't doing enough to combat the pirates. That KJ's should not just ignore the illegal hosts. Combat them anyway you see fit. Just don't ignore them.

The problem is that many people are uncomfortable with conflict. They don't want to get involved (thus my onlooker analogy).



Let's keep this straight. Chip Staley is ignoring the pirates, Chris Avis is not. Furthermore, I don't hold out an olive branch to every single pirate out there. The ones that I am helping approached me. My business plan doesn't include converting known pirates for profit even though there may be a short term gain in that. But if someone approaches me, that shows an effort on their part to clean up their act. THAT helps us all.

I have not actively confronted any known pirates yet. I am still trying to figure out the best appraoch for that. But I do plan to do it.






You are deflecting again. The "real picture" for HOSTS is piracy by other hosts and the hard drive sellers and the iRC channels and the Torrent streams and the disc burners. The "real picture" for the MANUFACTURERS is more multi-faceted. They have their own legal hurdles to jump and we have ours. As I noted, there isn't much we can impact at their level. But we can impact it at ours.



I get involved in the things I can have an impact on. Why you want to make Sound Choice your nemesis because of litigation you can't impact in any way is beyond me. You can't do anything about it. Furthermore, since you don't use Sound Choice material, it has absolutely zero bearing on your business as all. In fact, it has zero impact on the business of those that do use Sound Choice product. If you wish to wish carry a grudge against Sound Choice for something they can't even do any more, and you can't do anything about, go right ahead. Yet you will still ignore the guy around the corner who steals 250,000 tracks from thousands of artists, gobbles up market share, reduces the cost you can charge for a show AND you CAN do something about.



I state that you ignoring the pirates and letting them continue to work, that you are in fact working against the industry. My plan to combat piracy is not fully realized yet. But I will not simply let them go about their business as if they have a right to be there.



Fair enough. But how confident are you that you could take a pirates gig from them? Could you do it without calling them out as a pirate?

For the record, you have benefitted "some" hosts. Not all hosts have seen or used your marketing or your free software. That is not a slight against you, just a correction away from the blanket "benefitting everyone" statement.



I agree. He does have a vested interest in his own clients positive outcomes. That is why I wish we had an attorney for the KJ's present in the forums.



It isn't a refusal, I just don't see any benefit to it. All I have seen you and others on both sides of the issue do is wave the information around as a means of stirring the pot. Every single thread with a link to PACER or JUSTIA devolves into a flame war with no winners.

When you or anyone can explain to me how gaining the "education" on the "legal background" of Sound Choice has directly improved your karaoke business and/or produced some positive impact to any part of the karaoke industry, I will reconsider. If someone can prove to me that reading those documents will somehow accomplish even a few of these items:

Make me more money
Make other legalhosts more money
Combat piracy
Get pirates out of the marketplace
Improve the quality, and timeliness of music produced by the manufacturers
Unify legal hosts so they support each other instead of undermining each other

....then I will gladly read them and educate myself. Until then, I will focus on running my karaoke business instead of playing the part of armchair attorney.



....and your point is?



YOU seem to have plenty of time to conjure up lengthy posts under the guise of helping KJ's. I guess that is your project.

You are also also focusing on my request and that no one responded to instead of the fact that I am trying to educate without cheerleading and without fear. But since that would mean I am not a Sound Choice lackey, you chose to gloss over and deflect it.



Carefully read every post I have made. Where did I ever say someone has filled in for me? Earlier in this post I noted that someone I helped asked me to fill in for them. They are at risk, not me.



See above. If knowing their history would result in me being as negative about the industry as you come across, then I especially don't want to know.



In reality we are judging each other only on roughly 3 months of exposure to each other.

That said, I am more aware than you may know.

I was a software pirate in the 80's and very early 90's. I understand the motivation behind piracy. I know why pirates do what they do and how they do it. I have watched technology change piracy from being something that only tech heads could do into something anyone can do. I have watched society as a whole start to view piracy as a victimless crime. I now work in an industry where the scale and sophistication of piracy makes what is happening in the karaoke industry seem insignificant and irrelevant in comparison.

Also, I have a very close friend who has been a host for 22 years. We have been friends for 17 years. I have watched his ups and downs. I have watched him grow and I have watched him on the brink of disaster. I have had many conversations over the years with him and other KJ's. I have felt their pain as they have moved from venue to venue as pirates push them out of there markets. I have even watched a few of them throw in the towel and go the pirate route themselves.

Of course that is no substitute for having lived it they way you and others have. I absolutely respect your tenure in this business.





I am not on their bandwagon. Just because I chose to get certified doesn't mean I wanted to get certified. Let me see if I can make this as clear as possible.

In the case of Stellar Records - I chose to do a CAP agreement because of the massive Stellar library that was sold to me under the premise of being legal. It was the most cost effective means of obtaining the music legally that there was to me with the information I had at the time. I retrospect, I could have done it for a lot less money using my current methods. I would not and will not do it again.

In the case of Chartbuster - Certification came as a result of purchasing their 12000+ drive. A highly cost-effective way of obtaining already ripped, unique tracks and a means of immediately increasing the size of my library significantly since I did not own many Chartbuster discs. Certifications was simply a bonus.

In the case of Sound Choice - I already had a significant number of discs and had already ripped them. I sought out certification for several reasons 1) Insurance against a lawsuit. To me, it just makes sense. 2) Compared to the Chartbuster and Stellar, the cost of an audit was miniscule. 3) I do get to say I am certified and that is a marketable asset.

I specifically state to venues and other KJs that certification is OPTIONAL. It is not required. I don't believe it to be necessary for media-shifting (I do not at this time have the resources to fight that battle to try to prove it).

But it is the quickest, safest, and potentially least expensive route for LEGAL hosts to avoid legal entanglements. There is something to be said for that aspect of it no matter what you may feel about the manufacturers.



I withdraw my claim and simply refer everyone to your statements about doing nothing to take on the pirates.
Once again, not my heroes.
And finally, theft is theft.

Do something to stop it, or allow it to happen.



Don't even get me started on religion.....

-Chris

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-Chris

After the obscene amount of time I gave up writing, editing, spell-checking, revising that last post, I realized something.

I entered this thread on two vectors -

1) Pointing out that the people named in the lawsuit were not as famous as the subject line suggested.
2) Theft is theft no matter what the scale or who is doing it.

I allowed myself to get dragged in different directions, and to go off topic. I am dropping point #1. Point #2 stands.

Theft is theft. If you don't wish to report it, fine. There is actually no law that says you have to (except under certain circumstances...this not being one of them).

I believe the right thing to do it report it. I want to be the person that takes some risks and jumps in to help the person getting beaten down. I would like to think that some would jump in to help me if I am getting beat down. I don't want to be the onlooker or the cameraman.

I don't want to be Joe Paterno.

-Chris

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-Chris

I had to answer you last post first - for perspective.



You are worse than Joe Paterno. You freely admit that you don't report pirates - you "help them become legal" while allowing them to operate illegally.

So in a sense, you're helping the thief to steal from your neighbor.... until they can steal enough to pay you to help them become legal. In the meantime your neighbor (the legal KJ's) are the ones taking the hit. The pirate is not, and you're not and the manufacturer's are not... just the legal KJ's...



-----------answer to previous post below ------------------


I do realize that. And that only happened a couple years ago.


If you are "helping them get legal" then you are simply currently "allowing them to operate as pirates" isn't that something you seem to have such a problem with?... Oh, but I suppose they can operate as pirates in order to get enough money to pay you to help them get legal is that it? It's okay to screw over the current legal KJ's out of work while you help the pirates make a nice firm footing in the market...

Which market are you really "helping?" Because the way I see it, you're screwing over the current, working, legal KJ's. But that's okay right?
You see the problem here? Not helping them at all isn't such a bad option is it?.... Unless of course you can stand to profit a little bit right?


If they don't "settle, go legal, and stay in business" then what's the last option? Retire and die of old age? Seriously, if they get out of the business, they really didn't need it to start with.

The "stigma" that you reference is not reserved for pirates alone... Just ask Rodney - who was drawn and quartered by cheerleaders before Harrington could get his boots on. That's the other option.



And you will follow suit.. while you "allow pirates to operate" while you profit from "making them legal."

Where have I heard that before???


Until the boogie man comes again -- perhaps under a different logo -- and does it again.



They have distributors for that.

[sidenote] And years ago, they yanked a bunch of distributorships because they instituted a "voluntary pricing structure" and if you didn't "volunteer" to uphold their MSRP you lost your distributorship. But that's a whole nuther story....


I think you "avoid talking about Sound Choice lawsuits" because it will put a quick damper on the chance of getting a venue to go with karaoke at all. Ask any of the long-time KJ's here how many THOUSANDS of "reports" were made with no results. So yes, KJ's have been "reporting pirates" for a very long time -- and completely ignored.



But you're talking out of both sides of your mouth: You want to chastise me for "sitting idly by" when in fact, you allow them to continue to operate as pirates (illegally) so they can earn enough money to buy discs from you to become "legal"?

You're screwing over the "legal KJ's" (and this industry) in the process. (but you can make a little change in the deal too right?)

You want to help them and the "industry?" Get them to stop until they are legal and let some legal KJ's who have spent the time and money a shot at those gigs. They deserve it, they've paid their dues.


"Straight?" Left something off that statement didn't you?
Try this: "Chip Staley is ignoring the pirates, Chris Avis is helping them."


Better have some real evidence that they are pirates because if you're using a computer and you have 40,000 tracks then even you "look like a pirate."



You simply refuse to look at history -- even recent history -- because it is distasteful to you. You don't want to reconcile that the camp you've decided to align yourself with has been pinned for the very same activity they are now going after the KJ's for. Yes, they have their own "legal hurdles" and they have done very little about hard disk sellers, Irc channels and torrent streams... much less the disc burners.



Perhaps they can "gobble up your market share" but not mine. They can "reduce the cost YOU can charge for a show" but not mine. So I've already done something about it... in by NOT "helping" them continue in business like you. I don't need Sound Choice or any other entity to do it for me.


I'm "letting them" continue to work? Isn't it you that is not only "letting them work illegally" and screw over the legal KJ's in the area, but "helping them" to become permanent competitors to the very ones getting screwed now? And you chastise me for doing nothing? Right now, "nothing" is doing more to "not help" piracy than you.... Look in mirror.


Depends on where they are working and why. If they are there only because the club can't or won't pay a decent wage, why would I want to? I don't compete on price and that's the only thing a pirate can compete on.


Fair enough... I should have clarified it by saying that it was "available to everyone HERE."


Can a leopard change it's spots? Hardly. You want to lead the charge against piracy? You'd best not be a pirate yourself in my book. I understand that you have a smaller book and that you want to keep some pages blank. But there's plenty you can learn as well by a little research.

Try it, or not. But don't sit in judgment of those that do.



This is what you do not (or refuse) to understand:
#1. It has nothing to do with you or any other host making more money. Do you think SC really cares if you make more money?

#2. Do you really think selling songs to make pirates legal and continuing the competition against legal KJ's is really a way to "combat piracy?" Really? They are keeping the pirates in business, not eliminating them so kiss the "eliminate from the marketplace" rhetoric goodbye.

#3. You cannot affect the "quality" of a manufacturer. You cannot affect the "timeliness" of licensing much less production.

#4. Based on past history (years and years) there will never be anything that can "unify the legal hosts" to agree that the sky is blue. Especially if it is funded by any manufacturer.... the "kiaa.org" fiasco is a perfect example.

So these are all the same things that you really cannot do anything about anyway but you refuse to see exactly what the roots are of your superhero are? If you want to get into this industy, learn it's history.



It's a guess.


You are absolutely a "cheerleading lacky" and as loudly as possible.... It is the "education according to Sound Choice" that you claim to want to spread. While at the very same time, you don't "report pirates" do you? You shelter them and "help them become legal" and scream that everyone else should be reporting them hourly.

Nice double standard! Pick a side and stay there, I'm getting dizzy keeping up.



You want to "educate yourself" about the industry? Not all of it is as yummy as ice cream.


Hard to believe since you are patterning your activities after theirs: sell the pirates music while you allow them to operate. What's the difference?


No one forced you. You not only wanted to, you demanded it. You chased after it. You called to make appointments... you made yourself available for it.

Please don't try to imply that you didn't "want" to be certified -- you expended a great deal of time and energy to get it because you consider it to be a "marketable asset."



I would disagree. Dropping the brand is the quickest, safest and least expensive.


You forgot the one that you subscribe to: Shelter and help the pirates become legal at the expense of the already legal hosts.

We can go back a forth forever on this, so let's get this straight:
"Chris Avis helps pirates stay in business, Chip Staley doesn't help them at all."

I only have time to address this glaring false accusation -

Show everyone where I have ever said in these forums that I have said that I don't report pirates.

-Chris

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-Chris

Have you stated that you do report them? I missed that apparently.

Or are you only reporting the ones you can't make any money off of?

Stay on point. Dont deflect or attempt to bait. Prove your point without fabrication or extrapolation.

Show everyone where I have ever said in these forums that I have said that I don't report pirates.

-Chris


Show everyone o

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-Chris