Karaoke Forums

If the manus could make money selling their product they would not have had to turn to suing the pirates. I do not remember the number of discs SC sold with the last disc released or the number of systems it was found on...maybe someone else has captured those numbers but I do remember they did not break even on costs.
ask those you live in the UK if the produb licences have eliminated pirates...unless I am mistaken a number have already posted they don't. If Zoom, sunfly ect did not have countries they could sell product to other than the countries that have produb licences would they continue to produce products?
Oh and where did the info that SC had sold all the equipment to ex-employees come from. I saw plenty of equipment when I toured the studios

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

I am not saying that the manufacturers are making money from selling their products I am saying they SHOULD be able to. No licensing doesn't solve the piracy problem, it is becoming just as big a problem over there as it is here.


What I am saying is that blanket licensing is not the doom and gloom situation you seem to propose it would be. Its the EXACT same boat we are already in, the only difference is that there would be an avenue to persue BEFORE litigation becomes a factor and it would clear up all the BS about what a host can and cannot do. giving someone a license to format shift is not giving them a license to steal, they will do that with or without it.

If anything, in my opinion licensing would make pirates easier to catch because spot checks would be mandatory

Jclayton,
S pot checks would be a good thing as would a criminal penalty for those who are thieves....
Right now legit KJ's / hosts can pay less than the propsed $500 year and get permission to format shifts...just sayin

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

i'm trying to find which one it was, but one of the lawsuits posted here it stated that.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

from 2 manus. not from Stellar or any others yet.
once they get into the audit as well, that number is going to go through the roof.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Right now it's cheaper, Sound Choice 125.00 audit, Chartbuster 199.00 audit, Stellar whatever they are going to charge, not to mention all the once a year checkup fees. Then of course the other manus requiring similar fees, and audits, not to mention travel time lost time for the host. I think in the long run it would cost considerably more than $500.00 a year. Also these fees and audits could be raise on a yearly basis, granted so could the license fee, but at least you would only be paying once. While it wouldn't end piracy it would at least get everybody paying something, and the pirates would be easier to catch. You also would just show the license, and not have to carry reams of certificates to various job interviews.

Four whole years to finish the investigation, and now it is going to be drug through the court system for how many more years? You are looking for a quick solution to this problem good luck! I'll be dead and gone before any of this gets sorted out. Isn't that why Sound Choice quit making product they weren't getting compensated?
They decided to become professional legal litigants. Stating that stealing is wrong, is not a plan, it's a morale fact. Let's explore the sense of entitlement, our government is based on a contract between the people and their leaders. If people have paid into a system their whole working careers with the idea that promises were made by the government, then it is the government's obligation to honor those promises. If the pledges are not honored, then according to our constitution the people have the right to replace said government. Every host I know of in my area don't rely on karaoke as their sole support, of course unless they are retired. That is a decision that you made to put all your eggs in one basket, not thinking ahead to the changes in the industry as a whole. What have you really lost would you even take a job for less than your lowest price? I feel sorry that it is the very food on your table, but I never quit my day job and expected karaoke to pay for my life style. I enjoy what I do can you say the same? You have to ask yourself that the hosts that agree with you, all of you have a sense of entitlement, since you bought your product, and played by the rules. You are all entitled to have the industry shaped the way you want it and not the way it is now. I took a risk when I got into this business, every time a perform it''s a risk, without risks there can be no rewards. Those that take risks should reap the harvest they have sown. Sound Choice, Chartbuster, or Stellar did not give me any words of encouragement. They did not put up any of the money for my business, it was up to me to make it work. If I would have failed would they have compensated me for my loses? You are right no one in business is entitled , yet you want these manus to entitle the legal hosts to a fee hand in the industry. I don't believe they ever came to me with that offer.

Why all of these exceptions for karaoke? Why should karaoke only be a hobby subsidized by a day job now when many hosts make/made a good living at it?

If the feed store sees a truck park across the street from it selling stolen hay at 1/4 the price they can then they have recourse to call the county and have it stopped. If a bar has another bar open up next door and they are selling 10 cent beer because they are getting it by hijacking beer trucks then that bar is going to make a complaint somewhere and get it stopped. If someone set up a table outside a movie rental place and was selling home made copies of DVDs at half price, you can bet that a phone call would be made pretty quickly. In any other business you would be a fool to allow illegal competition. Yet for karaoke people seem to feel you must be a wimp that can't make it on your own merits if you say that music theivery is hurting the industry and impacting business and it needs to stop.

Piracy is just one item in the total karaoke picture. It takes very many items to make a show a winner or a loser. The host has to have a large range of skills and knowledge to make a show turn out right. Even if a person were to steal tools that doesn't make them a carpenter, or a qualified plumber. They have to have the know how in using the tools. The discs are just one tool the experienced host uses. If all that mattered was the size of a hosts library the pirates would have sent the other hosts packing a long time ago. The reason price is a factor is due to harsh economic times in this country. If people decide that they cannot afford to go out any more don't be shocked to see venues drop entertainment altogether. The legal hosts might get the shrinkage they want but not in the way the want it. You have to be very careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

We are already seeing the shrinkage from the economy, being in one of the harder hit areas. We are already seeing no karaoke at places that used to have it. On the other hand, some of it seems to have gone underground and is small time in small places that don't advertise it. We know of shows where someone just brings in their home system and hangs out in case someone wants them to fire it up for a song or two. We understand what we are fighting.

What you still haven't explained is why, in karaoke, illegal competition is an acceptable force in the market place? And please don't mention that there have always been shade tree mechanics yet auto repair places still stay in business. I would equate that to the situation mentioned above where a full-fledged karaoke show WILL beat a fellow with his boom box and home discs. The karaoke situation is more comparable to a full fledged business opening up next to another full fledged business trying to drive the other out of business by using stolen property.

I never said it is acceptable, I just said that if a host knows how to operate his or her business they should not be afraid to compete in the market place. I have people look me up for jobs I don't have to go out looking for them. They know I get results and they don't mind paying my price. One thing that bothers me is from what you say the pirates are every bit as good as the legal host at running their business. That would mean the pirate enterprise is not inferior then as most legal hosts have maintained. You have good and bad hosts legal as well as illegal, it boils down to ability, as an industry don't we want to retain the best and get rid of the rest?

Sure as several people have stated, right now its cheaper. But what about when Stellar gets involved, and pocket songs/mmo? Then there are all the dead karaoke labels that aren't covered by all these separate labels.

And on top of that, no matter how unlikely it is, after you have spent countless hours of your precious time going through all those audits and payed all that money you STILL have the possibility of the ORIGINAL IP holders coming after you because non of the current US producers can allow the format shift for the lyrics.

I don't know about you but I'd rather have the peace of mind that as long as i am running legitimately no one can EVER bother me for any reason, period.

To those that are interested I found my notes from the meeting in NC and I had written down the information on SC's last disc. The disc sold 750 copies (the first run) the disc was found to be listed on over 10,000 systems . I'd say that is pretty eye opening.
We made a very comfortable living the business we built for over ten years because we treated it as a business and built a "brand" for ourselves. If your day job suddenly decided to cut your pay by more than 1/2 due to other peoples theft...how would you handle that ?
We do love what we do...if we didn't we wouldn't be continuing on and doing it ( I kinda resent that I was forced to get a day job in order to put food on the table )

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

It is just a sign of the times for 10 years you were able to make a living at just karaoke. I never in my wildest dreams ever thought karaoke would be a full time career. When I was a boy people wanted to be doctors, lawyers, soldiers, nurses, maybe president, but karaoke host. Though I must confess that was quite a while ago.
To me this is like playing in a band at night, one of those little combos you to see in the Holiday Inn. It never crossed my mind to do that for a living. The entertainment industry being so unstable it just didn't seem do able with a family and all. I guess some of the hosts though view this as a career option. Just as Sound Choice had to face the realities of the times, I think the hosts really should readjust their goals as far as what karaoke can provide. The reason I worked for the government so many years is because my father told me, get with the biggest company you can find and put in your time. I couldn't find anything bigger and it still is growing today.

Well, if you do it 5-7 nights a week for 10-20+ years, then it is a career. It is as honourable (as long as you are legal) as any other career out there.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

we made more money providing karaoke services than most people in this area made for many years(including government workers)and did it honorably and legally...we still make more than most firefighters,policemen and teachers in our area. I do not have any problem with those that provide karaoke as a hobby or extra money as long as they are legal. I do take it personal when someone steals and gets into the business causing a degradation of the industry )that I have spent over 17 years and 100's of thousand of dollars building my business in)

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

These are indeed very hard times, even government workers, state, local and federal are being laid off with budget cuts and so forth. 90% of small business's fail within the first 5 to 10 years on average, that is why going into business for yourself is a risk. The fact that you have been able to stay in business for 17 and 20 years respectfully, is a testament to your business skills, both kjathena and timberlea. Even the Post Office that was started by Benjamin Franklin is losing money and closing offices due to the fact of technology. People don't write letters they E mail, they pay their bills on line, and get their pay checks automatically deposited. Technology is a two edged sword it can help the host in his job or it can be a curse to the industry as a whole. I respect the fact that both hosts have invested time and a great deal of money into building their business's. Now the question is can the old way of doing business survive in the new reality of the market place? I guess a lot is riding on the manus and if they can put the technology genie back in the bottle? Personally I think they are more interested in getting the lamp and trying to get the genie working for them. Uncertainty in the market place is what keeps people from investing in or starting a business, I think it is time to take the uncertainty out of the karaoke industry, establish the rules, and get some kind of licensing program going, rather than this manu by manu approach to auditing.

You are entitled to you opinions and some of your arguments have some validity.
My business will do just fine once the thieves that have saturated my market are forced to pay for what they have stolen. I can compete and succeed when I do not have to deal with the pirates that have paid less than 2k to start a business and have every karaoke song ever made.

I have never had problems helping someone get started (yes I know some like Chip would say I am not a good business owner...but I am a good person) if they were doing it legally. I have even given equipment to newbies in need, helped create books and even trained them on how to run sound properly and how to promote themselves.

Business is competitive by nature. At peak our small business employed 6 KJ's working full time (or as much as each wanted to ). 4 of the KJ's still working in our area started by working for us and we helped them get started (unfortunately each one ended up being very short-sighted IE pirating music and not reporting income and paying taxes).

The honorable and morally sound way of doing business can and will survive ( I just hope I live long enough to see it).

The manu's are giving permission to convert and use digital media IF the rules they set are followed. They have a right to set the rules it is their product. If and When they decide to create some sort of joint venture (IE a central licence) I will be behind that as well. If and When they "get a hold of the lamp" and make "the genie work for them" I will say bravo...they are the ones paying all the costs to produce the tracks I use to run my business...if they cant make money doing so no new tracks will be produced.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

You may speak for Sound Choice all you like, but I do NOT appreciate you speaking for me... EVER. Knock it off.

You have no idea what "Chip would say" and if you have me on ignore, that doesn't give you permission to imply ANYTHING - good or bad. So leave me out of your insinuations entirely.

Slight interruption here folks... Athena, 750 isn't a big run. I am dying of personal curiosity to know the disc number, and what tracks were on it, for no other reason than to figure out why they only made 750. I'm not looking for debate material here- just truly curious. If you would prefer, feel free to PM if you would...

We now return you to the discussion in progress..

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."