Karaoke Forums

They really are clueless aren't they?

Don't tease them though tell them what was behind door number one!

wow, when did SC begin charging?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Well the east coast is a fairly small community from where I live I can't get out of the state in less than 5 hours and traveling to the East Coast would take me at least 2 days.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

No basis in fact? Does Chartbuster charge for an audit? Yes.... Has WallOfSound paid his money and have an audit scheduled just for Chartbuster on 07-11-11? Yes. Have others here stated that there are (now) charges from SC regarding audits? Absolutely.

Did you pay a fee for an audit? No, you did not pay for an audit per se, but you did incur expenses to attend their "meeting".. and those expenses were your choice entirely. Your reward for your attendance was a reduction in price on some of their unsold product.


Sure you brought your Zoom discs.... but did you see any type of written authorization giving SC the rights to do anything from them? Nope. You simply take their word for it - and that's fine - it's up to you to decide what you have to do to protect your business. Because after all, it really is protection that you were seeking.

And, while you say you'd be willing to present your discs to any manufacturer, would you be willing to fork over $200 to EVERY manufacturer that asks.... EVERY YEAR? On top of purchasing their product, you might find yourself growing tired of shelling out that money rather quickly.


Translation: "I do not see this as a problem. I would rather do whatever they want, including paying their protection money, to avoid being wrongfully sued and my reputation being trashed."


Sure.... except that it will cost you your privacy and a good chunk of money every year...

Whatever floats your boat.



Since the meeting was in NC and you are in Colorado, I'm pretty sure you incurred the most in travel expenses however, that statement would not be true for others that didn't travel as far. Again, your travel expenses were your choice entirely.

Here is a novel idea, instead of worrying about who may or may not have gotten a "free pass" or a product "discount" or who has to "pay" for an audit and who didn't. It would probably much more productive to worry and do something about who is using pirated material.

If you are a pirate stop worrying about getting caught or getting over and get legal instead, spend some of the money you have stolen from the manus and legit KJs and purchase and replace the product you stole.
This way you don't have to worry about "passing" an audit.

If you are not a pirate, stop attacking the manus and those who are supporting them in their efforts to reduce piracy. Stop giving the pirates moral support about what the courts may or may not do and what the manus can and can not do. Stop giving the pirates ideas of ways they can possibly get around a law suit or an audit.

What happens if you don't?

All of the manus stop producing any new music and go into survival mode (doing nothing but tracking pirates) or simply close their doors. All of the manus have now reached a tipping point, When Sound Choice started filing suits the pirates stopped using their product and started stealing more from other manus, when Chartbuster started filing it slowed the theft of their product and again put pressure on the others. Now Zoom and Sunfly are feeling the pinch and they are considering getting into the pirate hunting business. Stellar took a different approach to the problem and choose to allow the pirates an easy way out to get legal with their product but here again the pirates were not interested so that is about to change as well.

For the KJs who are legit why are you supporting the pirates? it is your money they are taking, they are not your friends, they will steal from the manus, they will steal from the venues, they will steal from the patrons and they will steal from you. The pirates are not "working with" "cooperating with" or trying in any manner to support this industry, they are parasites sucking the blood right out of your body like a leech, burn them off and stop thinking they are your friends.

You know who they are, you know where they work, get active and start trying to be man or woman enough to do something about bringing them down. Tell the managers and owners of the businesses they are working at what they are, start reporting them and the venues they are working at to the manus so they know where to look.

Did anyone hear that the sky is falling?

It is I tell you! Be careful.....

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

? from Maine to Florida the east coast is 2500 miles long traveling non-stop at 60 MPH it would take 41 hours to travel that distance.

From San Antonio Texas to Charlotte NC is 1200 miles and takes 20 hours to drive at 60 MPH. Did Austin last year in 21 hours from Virginia.

Danny G traveled 800 miles, Sandman traveled 1700 miles, KJ Athena traveled 550 miles to get to the audit.

Now this cracks me up!
Thunder forgets that the entire "pirate world" was created by the very manufacturers that he is kissing up to.

In my opinion,

The manufacturers are the ones who began the piracy in this business looong before anyone else did. The copyright lawsuits against them bear this out dating from the mid 90's all the way to 2009 so for all those years, they've been using piracy as their business model for which they have made millions in the process.

The manufacturers had the opportunity years ago to thwart piracy when it began long before the first computer-based players were available simply by closing the market to professional KJ's only. Pioneer discs were $160 each and purchased primarily by professional KJ's. But they wanted the KJ's business and the general public as well.

The manufacturers are the ones now who want you to pay for their product AND THEN pay again for the privilege to actually use them. I'm sure that they'll think of something else you can continually pay for down the line.

The manufacturers are also the ones ultimately NOT looking to end piracy but to keep the current pirates out there and in business, competing against you and will offer them an incentive of lower pricing and even financing to do so... Simply ask TroyVnd27 about his "offer to help end piracy" by the manufacturers.

What really cracks me up is that the manufacturers are the ones who are now acting like always-innocent little helpless victims...

If you believe that then they've got you... hook, line and sinker.

Maybe the manu's should have just kept making MediaCloq discs so no one could copy them. However, KJs complained that they would stop buying brands that used that technology as well.

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

Perhaps the manufacturers should have thought ahead (a little farther than the end of their own nose) and made a proprietary player to play a proprietary format -shared by manufacturers only- for the KJ's if that market was so important to them... (it wasn't)

Keep in mind WOS that SC was approached in 2001 about a proprietary format for computer use that would have effectively "locked" a song to a single computer... they refused it.

They had their chances now haven't they?

Actually, I have NEVER said that, Lone. What I said was that just because isn't on the books as explicitly illegal doesn't make it legal. Slightly different.

However, downloads are a different story. U.S. laws DO REQUIRE that certain permissions ( licenses) be gained before using another's product publicly or commercially. The permissions change radically by product, So I am directing myself to karaoke.

When one uses a manufacturer's original disc in a show (and MAYBE just owns the disc that has been copied to PC- no definites here yet), the responsibility for those permissions (licenses) rests squarely on the manufacturers of those discs- NOT on the KJ.

In the UK, for example, all parties involved have agreed to blanket licensing for downloads, and such a blanket license has been drafted, is in use, and the responsibility also falls on the mfrs. shoulders.

There has been NO SUCH AGREEMENT by all parties involved in the U.S., and no such blanket license has EVER been drafted, much less put into use.

Since these downloads are not the manufacturers original product, all licensing for use in commercial shows in the U.S. is the responsibility of the KJ - NOT the manufacturer.. This means that unless the KJ has approached each and every owner of each and every track and has gained written permission for use ( which also includes things like Sync, Fixing, Digital Rights, Promotional, Recording, etc..- and how many KJs that you know have done that? ) then said said KJ is liable for separate suits against each and every one of those tracks.

Now, all that being said: Who's doing any enforcing? Not too many that I can think of - RIGHT NOW. However, before the widespread use of PCs and MP3s in shows, who would have figured piracy would get bad enough to warrant Karaoke Producers' attention?

My point was and is that download based shows are using tracks without the permission of the music OWNERS, and IF they decide to get involved as the karaoke mfrs. have, the KJs, -not the manufacturers- would be held liable.

1) One rule for running a successful business is limiting risk. Running a download based show ADDS risk.

2) A download based KJ is using tracks without any permissions given ( except possibly by the karaoke producer, but since they don't own the music this means nothing- and only applies to that company's product anyway). Therefore the KJ is running a show that is no MORE legal than any pirate's, even if they laid out money and have karaoke mfrs. receipts for the product.

BTW- No Karaoke Producer or Download Site has the authorization to grant you the free use of downloads with lyric swipes in your U.S. based karaoke show. This is why they use the "Home Use" disclaimers that are are completely ignored.

Since the KJ may have paid for the product, I would be surprised to see the payee go after them, but they are fair game for all others, even karaoke producers who dispute the download site's authorization.

Of course, any KJ who is interested in being "1:1" no longer will be.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

if that is the case, then the video codecs that got updated on windows for your karaoke PC are not the original product and not usable in a comercial setting unless you got permission form the owner of that codec copyright owner. same for all the drivers and anything updated since you installed the os originally. The mp3 decoder used in Hoster and compuhost falls under that as well. i don't think it is quite that way. how is the mp3g download a different product from the mp3g taken from an SD card or an mp3g disc? same product, same data, same everything except delivery method. Sunfly delivers direct via download, is that not their product?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

If you'll note the statement at the top of my post, I mentioned that permissions differed for different products, and that I was directing myself to karaoke.

However, for the heck of it:

Your hoster and other software updates are downloaded through your registered permission granted from the OWNERS of the product, the only people to whom you would be liable for using non-original product. You've GOTTEN the OWNERS' permission to use the download. Karaoke producers and download distributors do not OWN the music, and can't give usage permission i U.S. based shows- they haven't got the authority. The only thing they can do is say that THEY might not give a problem, and each producer can only do THAT with their own products.

As for SD cards from CB, no one HAS said they are legal or not yet- the media shifting gray area.

Sunfly is a U.K. based company, in a jurisdiction where ther IS blanket licensing, and KJ based in the UK have permission to use them in their shows. Sunfly sells perfectly legally- it the USE in U.S. based shows, which has nothing to do with Sunfly in the U.K.

Also, in regard to: "..same product, same data, same everything except delivery method..."

Exactly. the delivery method is one of the main reasons that it is NOT original product. After a master is recorded, first it is media shifted to MP3, where much of the audio info is deleted. This is OK, because it's still in possession of the mfr. Then it is uploaded. There is no such thing as a lossless or perfect transmission media- Also using the hardware and by the people they have, and if nothing else, people's skills differ.

Then the fun really begins, The product is downloaded by amateurs using home equipment- at whatever rate they feel like, on any equipment available from Smart Phones to off brand / used PCs, to top of the line -over transmission media that ranges from DSL to dial-up, incurring more loss and errors, whether noticeable to the ear or not.

That alone would make it non-original product- because it simply no longer is. Also, let's not forget eventhe producers' policies requiring the ownership of Original "FIXED MEDIA". That doesn't describe a download.

Try asking the download site for documentation that it is original product, and maybe ask for per track documentation stating that said track is specifically licensed for use in a U.S. based karaoke show. See what happens...

Hope that helps.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

The producers are coming, the producers are coming!

I'm telling them all who use Supercore, All Hits, Dangerous, Sweet Georgia Brown, RadioStarz, etc.... on HD or Original CDG....

You all better watch out!

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"Just Say NO, To Justin Bieber & His Beatle Haircut"

One could argue as well that the data extracted from a cd and placed on a computer is "the exact same product, same data, same everything except delivery method." However, SC has been suing that it is not and that it is a counterfeit even though it originated off a cd manufactured by them.

Joe: OK I knew you said something but couldn't really remember the exact wording thanks for clearing that up.


Chip: Hey can you send me written permission to use your "MP3Songbook" I sure don't want to get in trouble from you if you happen to see it being used by me. (j/k)

I'm wondering if Zoom & Sunfly are helping SC in the UK. I know their stuff is being used there and most of it is probably pirated.

And now with CB streaming how can they get away with that? Wouldn't you need all same licensing you need with downloads?
What happens when an investigator sees that on your screen one night, how do they know it's streaming, CD, or on the computer?

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Pretty much . . . The difference is that you license the product for online streaming at X cents per Kilobyte streamed, rather than licensing X number of downloads at a set price per download.

The whole "no such thing as a 'download license'" is a sham. I think that's starting to become pretty apparent by now.

The law requires you to have a license. The law doesn't restrict the permitted delivery media specified in that license. Download is just another delivery medium.

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Dave's not here.

The only one who could restrict the delivery medium would be the entity who granted the licensing or the entity to whom the license was issued.

so Moon, Is it that a license is sold for "x" number of copies of a composition regardless of delivery method? Specific delivery methods are not needed, but can be restricted on the contract if the owner desires? am i following you correctly? No offence to Joe, but Moon is the only one with real first hand knowledge of music licensing (that i am aware of).

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Keep in mind I'm simplifying a bit.

Ok. There's four main types of delivery: physical media (CD/DVD/vinyl/tape), PERMANENT digital download (open-ended), limited digital download (X number of copies), and streaming. Each one has a different cost. What delivery method(s) you plan to use must be specified in your licensing so the costs can be calculated correctly.

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Dave's not here.