Karaoke Forums

Easy there, Tricerasoft. I wasn't asking for any trade secrets from you. Besides, apparently it ISN'T a trade secret. The Music Ownership search site links for BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC was posted on another thread...

I was ONLY discussing the lack of legality in regard to the use of downloads in a U.S. based karaoke show.

I wasn't knocking you, or what you do- honest! Your selling of downloads is not the problem- it's the USAGE by U.S. based hosts that is.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

What you need to drive into your head is that if the publishers had a problem with KJs performing with their legit music then ASCAP and BMI (who are EMPLOYED BY THE PUBLISHERS) would have shutdown every karaoke bar, venue, KJ, and performer across the nation. And it's very easy for ASCAP to check this because they have a checkbox on their private club license marked "Karaoke", "Karaoke Jockey", and "Audio/Visual" (hell, they monitor these bars and take license fees) - so basically if you were not covered, anyone who checks this automatically needs to get arrested and sued. THINK! The only reason this whole conversation started was because some manufacturers were sueing KJs for "USE", NOT copyright, NOT anything else - "USE". This conversation is mute and looping in a circle and you either have moles recirculating this issue and making sound "ooo! I'm confused" or some other garbage which doesn't even relate. Again, put this in perspective - as long as you hold songs that are licensed then you are either ALL illegal or ALL legal, there is no inbetween. If your theory holds (which it doesn't) and you are all illegal because of "lack" of licensing, how in the hell would all the publishers sue the ENTIRE NATION???!?!?!?!?!?!?! But you are all legal if you bought songs with licensing and your venue owner is paying what they need to pay. The other option is tell all KJs to stop using Karaoke - not likely going to happen. So either stop dreaming up excuses and do your job or give up being a KJ because you think everyone is after you and stop obtaining content that is expressly told to you "not for use as an entertainer" (I am referring to the people with the excuses) - and if you already have this content, touch noogies, they don't want you to use it or pay them more (WERE NOT ASKING FOR MORE BECAUSE IT WAS INTENDED FOR YOU ALL (KJs)). And again based on your theory of "lack", well if there is no such license then you can't enforce something with nothing - no one can sue you based on nothing. They can sue you for being ignorant if there was a license, but unless they can give you something to fill the void then they can shove the nothing - BUT a KJ does pay these licenses, through the price of a track or disc and again through the venue owner -- a KJ never forth sees anything to do with licensing other than prove purchase ("look, here is my receipt, disc, SD, etc and it can be confirmed") END!!

Actually you know what, let's reverse the tables - so based on your assumption you are illegal to be a KJ in the USA -- Assuming the manufacturers and suppliers you obtain from are all paying all they can as outlined by their publisher or agency. Your venue owner is also paying all they can as well to ASCAP or BMI. And you even have permission from manufacturer to use the songs for KJing. But you still believe you are illegal with the content you have as a KJ in the USA - what are you going to do about it?

I'll tell you this, there is nothing else a manufacturer or reseller can pay, nor is there anything else a venue can pay. There is no facility for a KJ to pay aside from paying the manufacturer and letting the venue pay for their replayed content. What are YOU going to do about it??!?!?!

When you come up with the answer tell me and I will support you.

I'll give you a hint: it is either do nothing or join a DJ association.

Tricersoft,

Just so I don't misunderstand your post are you saying it is OK to make copies of the songs downloaded through your system and use them in multiple rigs or to borrow, loan or sell those files from and to others?

Read the terms and conditions.

I did but I am confused by your statement about the manus who are suing KJs for the "use" of their material, I was under the impression that they were suing KJs for the "use" of pirated material.

I am confused by your statement and was wondering if your position on this was different from their's.

Now you are just blowing hot air because our terms on the website are very clear. And read the posts, they all think its about copyright when infact it is about use. So you know the answer.

See now, what I was trying to get is a straight answer, so are you agreeing that the manus are correct in proceeding with lawsuits against those who are pirating their content?

I agree that these cases have nothing to do with copyright and everything to do with use of the copied trademark.

Gotta love muddy waters. From what I understand, Tricerasoft is not a manufacturer but a distributor who has permission to sell songs from certain manufactuers (not all). With this permission (or licence if you will) they can sell you a song from their library, (the proceeds of which pay for licencing, royalties, expenses, profit, etc). The purchaser can only have it on his or her computer and may make one back up. They cannot format shift. The product may be used by a KJ for public performance as long as the apporopriate performance fees are paid and that the product is legal in the country where the product is received. Is that about the crux of the matter Tricerasoft?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Tim,

I understand that as well I was just trying to make sense out of his post concerning the actions of the manus



And I get to the really confusing part of his statement here:



What I am confused about is (and maybe this is also confusion on his part as well) his use of the term "USE" and what constitutes songs that, "you hold that are licensed", the way it reads to me is if every song that someone has has been "properly licensed" by the manus then every person who has that song (regardless of how they got it) is covered.

If he meant that every song that you "legally purchased" was produced by a manu with the proper licensing then I could easily agree with him without any confusion, but this was not the case and I was trying to get him to give me a straight answer to my question.

I also agree that Tricersoft has stated that they are a distributor and as such have their TOS on the product that they sell, but do not understand what that had to do with the USE issue he threw in about "some manufacturers were sueing KJs for "USE", NOT copyright, NOT anything else - "USE"."

Yes, timberlea - The product is legal for the country when we pay either the respective agency that deals with that territory sold or the universal license direct to the publisher (which would be for World coverage) - therefore YES, that is about it. And yes, we only pay for one copy of the song to be used either for home or KJ.

What - what the heck are you talking about? Your confusion is addicting. It is very straight forward, buy one song, use in one place, confirm manufacturer lets you use it for the purpose, if it is licensed you are alright, everyone gets their money.

I should add; no stealing, no sharing, no excuses, no Venue owners skipping out on fees.

And if I didn't already mention this, if you want to check the standing of a manufacturer just email the agency they belong to and ask "is X manufacturer releasing songs with you?", a Yes would qualify them. If you want to check the standing of a reseller or distributor, check what songs they sell and send a small email to the manufacturer of the song and ask "is X supplier one of yours?", a Yes would qualify them. If either of these answers are an absolute NO, start deleting your content because it is not legit. You can also ask "Are your songs for KJs?" (you can ask all of them to be sure).

Further to that, if you are still worried about legality; If the manufacturer is not licensed, let the publishers get them. If the distributor is not legit, let the publishers and the manus. deal with them, unfortunately the publishers aren't doing anything to the nasty ones out there now because they mean nothing to them (wish they did). If you are worried about the manu. coming after you for using songs sold from a distributor that is not legit, then contact the manu. first and ask the questions I noted and avoid this issue all together. If a manu. gets jacked by the publishers you will know, but it doesn't mean you have to give up your songs. But opposite, it doesn't mean you can hold songs from legitimate manus. without paying them.

Now that was a straight answer, thank you!

thats what i was looking for.
Thank you Tricera

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Face it people, if a company that manufactures ANYTHING had to obey ALL of the laws in ALL of the countries that they export to trade would END.

Some countries are far stricter on some aspects of manufacture, trademarks etc., others have different ideas like compulsory liscenses for karaoke songs (IE no prior artist approval). The important point is that our trade negotiators realize that if we blocked UK karaoke songs for they way they treat royalties, then UK might block import of US made cars, phones, chicken or whatever if the US manufacture treats some aspects of production differently.

Since the US wants to export (and import) we designate some nations as having reasonable laws on such matters even if they are not the same as ours. This allows both countries to trade. Of course the US does not include countries that allow music piracy (in fact or through lack of enforcement). But we treat the UK laws for karaoke as sufficient, so the UK will treat our laws on the some other product as "sufficient" for the export of US goods to the UK, even if the US laws under which the product was made are different from the UK laws.

I am not saying we should feel comfortable buying karaoke cds from North Korea, because they disregard laws in general and dont care about "fair" trade, but for all first world countries (western Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, NZ etc) the US generaly treats their goods as ok to import into the US and to use here. Now a pirate CD or Kraoke could be made in the UK that does not follow UK laws, and that would be illegal here too, just as an illegally made track made in the USA. But if it is made in the UK (legally with royalties paid), imported legaly then it is legal to USE here in the same way that it is legal to USE a simlar US made product.

If the US government tried to block imports of UK made Karaoke, then it could face penalties by the WTO (world trade organization). Now that would be settled by the WTO in a hearing which would determine if the UK laws are different but generally fair. If the UK laws are reasonable according to the WTO, then the US would be penalized either by a fine or by allowing the UK to block a similar ammount of US exports.

Of course we all know that the US laws make karaoke manufacture here difficult, but a hearing by the WTO will probably find that the UK system pays royalties to artists and could be interpreted as FAIR. Our politicians know this and are unlikely to push the matter. The US trade is far too important to get bogged down on something as trivial as karaoke. The effort of US trade envoys to the WTO is all spent on both sides on items worth billions of dollars per year not the tiny karaoke market.

Industrial modern nations try to protect their industries, and to promote export. They are unlikely to risk retalition on a high value product on a matter so trivial as karaoke. How many jobs does the US karaoke MANUFACTURE industry support? Not enough to waste the staff time of a congressman or other politician.

If all countries had to obey the all laws of manufacture of other countries then silly laws would be passed to protect domestic trade. For example congress could pass a law that every person who was involved in installing tires on new cars has to wear a blue hat. This would make all Japanese, Korean or German cars illegal, especially if they did not know about the law in time to change production. The WTO would not allow such laws to be implemented for trade purposes. We can force our auto workers to wear blue hats, but we can't block German made cars for not following the rules.

The biggest irony about the whole thing is that the US karaoke company SC now makes their CDs under UK laws, and SC, Sunfly, Zoom are all equally LEGAL or Illegal in the US. If the US government goes to bat for the US Karaoke industry (not likely) then UK karaoke could be declared illegal, if the laws are found to be insuficient. But don't expect that to happen. If we did then the UK would probably ban US corn and the country would end up with 5 more jobs in karaoke manufacture and 50,000 less jobs in farming.

Um, Nice try. There is no license because all of the parties neccesary to such an agreement have yet to sign on- because they all want what they want. Without such a licence ( in other words, PERMISSION from all involved) there can be no LEGAL use of downloads in U.S. BASED shows- period.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

OK, so up until now, I've been saying that you are doing nothing wrong, because you are selling based on your location- outside the U.S.

Now I see that you are trying to muddy the waters, so I ask you point blank:

Are you saying that your downloads are LICENSED FOR USE IN U.S. BASED KARAOKE SHOWS BY KJs- YES or NO?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Everyone is being paid - who is this imaginary party you are referring to in the USA?? Men in Black??