Karaoke Forums

I wonder if they came through Venice and PC? Our same old pirates are still active, so I doubt they were too thorough.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

No, you misread my post. I was saying that your position -as a bar owner- is that you have an obligation to trace back the origins of all the material you use/sell in your business to make sure that it's "legal" and you're more than happy to agree that it's the responsibility of the bar owner to make sure that the KJ is "legal" and not using stolen music. However, you are --at the same time-- claiming that it is not the obligation of the bar owner to see that anything else he pays for is legal.

And he shouldn't have to. A food supplier or beverage supplier is governed, inspected and licensed by a government agency, but you want the bar owner to make sure that the KJ's music is paid for, but don't care if the beer truck or meat supplier is licensed?

It is a bit of double standard and I would agree that the law is screwed up entirely.

And, in the event that a consumer is poisoned from the bad meat, you and your bar will be sued right along with the meat supplier.... and in turn, you'll sue the meat supplier as well for selling you stolen and bad meat... that you never checked on because you believed the meat supplier was on the up and up.

That would be funny if I actually referenced craft beer or even drank... at all.


And this is where you need to define "consumer" because according to Harrington;
(1) the KJ is a "consumer",
(2) The bar is a "consumer" and,
(3) the patrons visiting the bar are "consumers."

If a bar owner doesn't pay the performance societies and a band or KJ performs a song, they are vicariously infringing as well... but the patron who walks in, buys a beer and then gets up to sing is not vicariously infringing as well? It is a tangled web to say the least.

And that is exactly why SC has been suing venues and not the KJ's in recent cases. Harrington himself has proudly explained on more than one occasion that SC has paid an infringement settlement with insurance money.... They know where the money comes from and where to go to get it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. My venues know the score and they know that they can be sued through no fault of their own. That's why they appreciate that I've gone out of my way to ensure that they are bulletproof to this kind of trolling action even if they get a complaint from a patron or two that buys $2 beers. Craft or not.

Okay ... well I didn't understand it that way based on the tone of your post, but claiming that I stated or implied that a bar owner has no obligation to see that anything else that he pays for is legal is a mischaracterization of what I said. I thought that would be clear from the car dealer analogy that I made earlier. I'm not about to play lawyer here but I believe in the case of receiving stolen or illegal property I think that there's a standard as to what is "reasonable care" taken to ensure that the goods are legitimate. I believe that purchasing food and beverages from a licensed purveyor would satisfy that standard, whereas KJs are not licensed, at least not in any state that I'm aware of (although here in the socialist Commonwealth of Massachusetts that can't be too far away).

I don't write the laws, but rather as a business owner am compelled to interpret them to the best of my ability and to the extent should I need to seek legal counsel if I determine that there maybe some exposure to certain liabilities. At the risk of sounding redundant, here again in the case of food and beverage these providers are licensed but KJs are not. As to whether I care if the beer truck or meat supplier is licensed, that's more of a political matter and actually I really don't care, but don't want to steer this discussion into a political debate. I can go on Facebook and get all of that I want.

(1) the KJ is a "consumer", AND a SELLER of his services
(2) The bar is a "consumer" AND, a SELLER of its goods and services
(3) the patrons visiting the bar are "consumers", AND ONLY consumers.

I guess a KJ or band could be held vicariously liable for performing in a venue without PRO licenses, but I've never heard of that happening to anyone, and here again this would seem to fall under the "deep pockets" theory so if a PRO is going to file charges, they're going to file charges against the venue and not the performers so I'm not sure if a judge would even allow such a case to proceed. In any event, I don't understand why you would think that a patron could somehow be vicariously infringing by singing a song in a venue without a PRO license.

A KJ is a VENDER. Just like any other company that sells a product to a BAR Owner. They are VENDERS. If the Bar Owner checks to see if the KJ is legal, then they need to check to see if other Venders products are ALSO legal.

That's why they call them VENDERS. They DON'T work for the Bar Owner and neither does a KJ.

A patron in a BAR is no more a PERFORMER than a person standing next to a HOT DOG stand and Singing while waiting for his Hot Dog.

Do you think a Hot Dog stand is going to need PERFORMANCE LICENSES? What is the minimum perimeter for a Hot Dog Vendor in order to determine that, if a Patron buys a hot dog and sings at the same time, he becomes a PERFORMER for the Hot Dog Vendor?

The KJ, as a VENDOR, does NOT sell anything that the BAR sells to the Public.

Karaoke is a company within a company and neither have anything to do with the other.

I don't sell drinks or food and the Bar doesn't tell me how to run Karaoke.

The KJ is a VENDOR to all the Patrons. The only difference is that I don't go to them, rather, I set up shop somewhere in a BAR and THEY COME TO ME FOR KARAOKE NEEDS...NOT THE BAR OWNER/WAIT STAFF.

My KJ VENDING Service to the Patrons is free.

What a Patron does in a BAR, when not using MY service, is NO CONCERN OF MINE.

Because, I guarantee you that Patrons will do various things during their visit to a Bar that have NOTHING to do with listening to another Patron's so-called "Performance."

Who pays you?

I don't know about the law's where you are but a bar where I am can lose their liquor license if they get caught with anything illegal in the bar. A patron who brings in cocaine and the Police decide to come in and check IDs and find out about the drugs can actually close the bar for the night and report the offense to the state liquor board and they can decide to revoke the liquor license and the bar may not be able to reopen, in the meantime while the law is investigating to see how involved the bar is can lock the doors and the entertainment may not be allowed to remove their equipment until the investigation is concluded.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Where do you come up with this stuff? How would a bar know what's in the pockets or purses of everyone that walks through the door? They wouldn't. And they wouldn't be responsible. It's like saying that the cops pulled someone over that was driving a Chevy car and found drugs on him so the they're going to close the GM plant that makes Chevy cars.

So, show me the ordinance to back up what you're saying. I need to see it in writing where if someone is found in a bar to be carrying drugs that the bar can be closed down. Until then, I call pure BS.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

In most if not all states, holding a liquor license is a privilege that can be revoked if the issuing authority determines that the license holder has engaged in illegal activities or if the licensed establishment has become a haven for the illegal activities of others.

In North Carolina, for example, the ABC Commission has a specific rule prohibiting the presence of controlled substances on a licensed premises and can suspend or revoke a license if any are found. If you Google "north carolina ABC quick guide" the first link will be a PDF that summarizes the regulations.

I've heard of this kind of a claim before. It was with band equipment not being able to be removed and the IRS locked the doors. The reason was for non-payment of sales taxes.

But, how can a bar be responsible for knowing what's on every person that walks through the door? I can see if the bar knew that illegal activity was taking place inside the establishment but It seems that if they want to play it safe, they would have to frisk and search every person before they enter the establishment.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Wasn't that The MacDaddy Band?

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

A KJ is considered a vendor ... maybe. It depends on the circumstances of the services being rendered. For example is the KJ required to provide his services at a specific time or does he have the option to start whenever he feels like it? Does the KJ actually invoice the bar owner or does he just get paid by cash or check at the end of the gig? Being issued a 1099 at the end of the year does not weigh as heavily as you might think in determining employment status. There are other qualifying factors. Also there are two sets of laws that deal with employment, federal and state, and each state has its own set of criteria for establishing employment status.

That aside, even if the KJ meets the private contractor criteria and qualifies as being a self-employed vendor, we're talking about two different scenarios here and two different sets of rules. You can't treat physical property the same as intellectual property. They're two entirely different animals. You can "steal" food and beverages but you can't "steal" music. You can only "infringe" on the latter.



Copyright law defines a public performance as "a place open to the public or any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family or its social acquaintances are gathered". Therefore a patron singing in a bar is most definitely and without a doubt considered a performer by law. The copyright code is very clear as to what constitutes a public performance, and what you described falls squarely within that definition. As far as the hot dog guy/girl is concerned, well that depends too. If the hot dog patron is singing in front of the other patrons and there are a substantial number of persons listening to him/her then that could also be considered a public performance. A patron standing in line singing a song is probably not, but actually it's an interesting question which I haven't a clue as to what the answer is but maybe if Jim Harrington is still following this thread then maybe he could provide the answer.

So what?


That's simply not true. They're two entirely separate entities yet they do have everything to do with each other when the KJ is providing his or her services. They have a shared liability for the KJs illegal activities, or if a patron trips over one of their cords, or other acts of negligence, or discrimination, etc.


Really? Try cranking up the volume to where the bar owner thinks it's too loud and then tell me he doesn't tell you how to run Karaoke. There are also some venues that won't allow certain types of music to be played on their premise and even specific songs. If you don't comply with the bars demands watch how fast they show you the door.


That may or may not be true. Some KJs have a following while some venues have their own following. In any event who cares? What's your point?


So again ... what does any of this have to do with anything?

I guess there are "Pussified" Kjs who take a stipend and/or are willing to let an Owner tell them what to do.

First of all, I am a Professional who owns MY OWN COMPANY. I don't see any other BAR OWNER'S name on my Taxes...or as you say...maybe, maybe not...those words will go a long way with the IRS...maybe, maybe not...LMMFAO.

The BAR has hired me to do what they DO NOT WANT TO DO.

Therefore, as a Professional, I know how to set the sound.

One BAR, a guy comes up to me and asks if I control the sound and wanted me to turn it down because he was having a conversation. I turned it up.

I look at it this way, and, since we are "Performers," (gotta get this in...maybe, maybe not) what do you think would happen in Las Vegas if, back in the day, Frank Sinatra was singing and someone came up and said, "Turn it down! I'm trying to have a conversation!" He may have a high probability of ending up in the desert.

When the Show starts...that's what takes FOCUS...otherwise YOU DON"T HAVE A SHOW...you have back ground annoyance.

It's pretty simple, you either have a BUSINESS to BUSINESS match or you DON'T.

There is one thing I learned about Bar Owners, they all have their own BS and when the BS Meter gets intolerable, it's time to move on.

Who pays me? Who pays the Liquor vendor? Who pays the Food vendor? Who pays the CO2 Vendor?

With that attitude, if I was a bar owner, you'd be gone in a heartbeat!

A KJ is an independent contractor who provides a service to the venue. It is your job to bring in customers, keep them coming back, and do what the owner wants. He is the one paying you.

So, let me ask you a question: If you wanted to start at 8 o'clock and the bar owner wanted you to start at 9, would you comply with that or would you say: I'm a professional, I'll start when I want.

Bottom line is, you work for the venue. They call the shots. If the bar owner tells you to turn it down, you turn it down whether you like it or not. Remember, as your employer, they can ask you to do things that are in THEIR best interest, NOT yours.

You are NOT a true professional as you have stated. If you were, you would understand that your job is to comply with the person who's paying you each night. If you can't do this because of your ego or pride, another line of work might be in order. I understand Home Depot is looking people in the paint department.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

By asking this question, I can see that YOU are NOT a Professional.

Because a Pro would be working from a contractual standpoint where ALL of these variables are taken into consideration and discussed Business to Business before taking the J O B.

Maybe this concept about a "Contract" is new to you.

However, you run your business the way you want and I'll run mine the F the way I want B.

Oh and, by the way...Maybe, Maybe Not...LMMFAO...Just had to say that.

Happened to me twice. Marie Callenders Restaurant 7 yrs ago, the company went belly-up and filed for chapter 11. I came to work the night of my gig and doors was locked. People from the corporate office were inside doing liquor inventory. I told them all the kj equipment, 4 speakers, 1 sub, full rig rack and 4 tv’s belongs to me. They’re in total disagreement because they were told the restaurant own everything inside. Besides, they’re not authorized to release anything without the proper approval from the corporate office.

‘Called my wife to bring the ownership papers with the manager’s signature, pictures & all. They called the manager for verification & the manager called the corporate office, got the approval release, I got everything out.

Italian Bar & Grill, 14 yrs ago, venue’s non-payment of rent. The waitress called me at home - the county Marshall’s closing the place. When I arrive at the venue the place was already shut down & padlocked. The Marshall was still in the parking lot. I reasoned with him to let me get my equipment out, showed him my ownership papers. No deal. His orders were to get all employees and customers out & close it. He told me to go to the city hall ‘commercial properties office’ & prove they belong to me. I did, & only then was I able to get my gear out (took 7 days). They told me were it not for my documented inventory papers my equipment would’ve probably end up in one of those restaurant auctions of tables, chairs, utensils etc., my rig included.

Word to the wise - if your equipment is in a permanent installation, full or partial, make an inventory list & take pictures. Last signature page: acknowledgement of ownership with your signature & date, including the owner of the club/bar/restaurant sign & date as well, with a statement that he/she certifies that you are the sole owner of the listed equipment (or words to that effect). Have it notarized, original to you & copy to the owner.

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To be fortunate enough to derive an income from a source as fulfilling as karaoke music has got to be as close to heaven as we can get here on earth!

Who the hell is talking about contracts? We're talking about doing what your employer asks of you. Nothing more, nothing less.

You seem to have an attitude problem. I could only imagine the loving interaction between yourself and your boss. Here's some scenarios...

Bar Owner: Do you think you can tape the wires down so nobody trips over them?
You: Don't tell me what to do. I am a professional!

Bar Owner: Do you think that you can turn it down a little right now?
You: Don't tell me what to do. It's my show and I am a professional!

Bar Owner: Do you think you can promote this weekends bands?
You: Look, don't tell me what to do. I'm a professional, you know!

Let me tell you something, you are far from being a professional. A professional would build a working relationship with the bar owner that would be mutually beneficial for both parties. A professional would not have the selfish Me, Me, Me attitude that you have.

Anyway, I'm done with this. Good luck.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

If a club owner doesn't want specific songs played in 'their' club - then you abide. If the volume is too loud for staff to get their orders, then you turn down a bit. If it's an unreasonable volume decrease and is being asked everytime and more than once a night, then i'd look for another club.
If I was a club owner and asked you to turn it down & you did just the opposite, you can pack your gear then and there & get the F out of my club!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

To be fair this isn't telling me how to run karaoke. A club has the right to ask for certain things in their club, a kj should have the common sense to create a working relationship with the club. If this means not playing certain music or keeping the volume at a reasonable level then so be it, I still run my show otherwise. You don't get hired at a country bar and insist you are going to play all hair metal.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

It's your show to run but if a bar owner makes a reasonable request that has to do with what not to play or what volume level to play at, it's more professional to oblige the request. Otherwise you can find yourself with no place to play if you treat every situation as your way or the highway. The only thing I don't allow a bar owner to do is dictate what type of rotation that I run and I spell that out before I accept the gig. there was one bar that I turned down because the owner wanted me to insert his friends into the rotation at whatever point the owner wanted it. I told him that I run a fair rotation where in the rotation everybody gets the same chance to sing and wherever in the rotation they submitted the song is where they are going to sing. The only singer I will move around in the rotation is the bartender when they are on a break but even they get only one turn per rotation.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.