Karaoke Forums

The venue does karaoke twice a week > 2 different KJs > Wed and Sat. > I have the Saturday one and the other host has the Wednesday.

I am THE EVENT - A ROADSHOW at 80021 on PEPs website.

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

ah, got ya.
two kj's does complicate things more.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Of course. PEP is going after venues. They don't care if the KJ paid not to get sued because it only protects the KJ. There's nothing in your contract (CNS) that prevents them from demanding that the venue pay for a license because they are still the ones allowing the logo to be displayed --- as a "Service Mark" and not a trademark remember?

The newest suits (if you recall Harrington boasting about them) doesn't broach any area where the host may or may not be a pirate or anything else. It's all about "service mark" and the venue "confusing the public." You have your CNS so they don't sue YOU for "trademark" but your venues don't have one to cover their "service mark" display. So, it's time for them to sign up too....

But I'm sure that Harrington will be happy to "license them" if they simply hire someone on their SCE employment list.... or someone willing to pay them a chunk of their show as a "booking fee" week after week..... (after all, the service mark ain't free you know)

Are you ready to join the "Sound Choice Entertainment" network of employees and /or pay them a portion of your shows? I'm sure that there is another contract somewhere that you can sign up for... (you'll even get the gem series free -- what a deal!)

It's more settlement lawsuits and this time it doesn't include you, just your clients/venues. (and thank you for creating the leads and customer/defendant lists for them.)

hang on there cowboy....
we don't know if this other host is legit or not. if he is a pirate, it could get dvdgdry another night
if he's not a pirate but just hasn't paid protection money, then i can go along with being upset.
either way, the other host is not certified...

wait until we know more.

@dvdgdry
do you know Mike D, and is he just a technical infringer, or a pirate?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

PEP is using the SAME concept as ASCAP and BMI. In that, there are MORE Venues than Radio Stations.

I stated a long time ago that the "Watchdogs" of the AIRWAVES, ASCAP and BMI, decided to extend their POWER to include any Venue that AIRED their MUSIC. The operative word is AIRED or Broadcast reception and reproduction.

Since these "Watchdogs" have been successful in establishing that a BROADCAST includes simply playing a CD from a CD Player in a "Commercial" environment as the same as reproducing a BROADCAST Signal, it has paved the way for PEP to try and establish dominance in the SAME manner.

You people didn't see the subtle changes that ended up encompassing EVERY Commercial environment so enjoy what's happening now.

Fortunately, for now, PEP only represents a few labels. But, I can guarantee PEP will try to get as many as they can. This will be aided by monies collected from anyone settling.

Therefore, either stop using SC and CB so you AND your Venues CAN'T be sued or, at the very least, fight them in court.

And, if YOU or your Venue gets sued, simply pull the SC and CB to quash the lawsuit. That way, they won't have a pot to pi#s in.

This would indeed be a dangerous situation to any host who currently has established venues he works at. The only thing that is keeping this from developing into a real problem for the independent owner operator and the small multi rig operations, is it is still in it's infancy. The combination of PEP and SCE is still a new concept, and not many venues have bought into it. That is because despite all of their bluster these are still two small under funded companies. If this model proves to be successful it is conceivable that funding could be found and this model expanded. You must remember, however, it would be very hard if not impossible for PEP/SCE to obtain rights to most of the old labels, since they have been in the freeware status zone for some time. They grabbed CB because it was in danger of falling into that status. I do feel that venues and hosts should resist this attempt to vertically integrate the karaoke hosting industry. Otherwise all hosts will be in direct competition with SCE as well as any pirates that PEP is not able to suppress. Since SCE is also getting into the gaming end of the business, they could also be a problem for operators of the Triva nights as well. This is all being done under the banner bringing everything together and ending the chaos. So instead of having to compete with equals you will have to try and get market share away from what amounts to a National Multi Rigger, while still trying to maintain your current piece of the pie.

c.staley, I resent the assumption that I am a snitch and you expressing that in a Public forum. I am going to ask you to leave any assumptions about me in your own head and not wag a tongue about them. I give you the same respect.

I am quite sure that over the past seven or so years of lawsuits and investigations and having knowledge of how to use social media and the internet and a phone in general PEP does not need any information from me. Paradigm just successfully exhibited his ability at such.

I am retired from AT&T (not a young pup), piss and vinegar waning. I have two gigs a week. Friday and Saturday. I am satisfied with that and want no more. I am not looking to build beyond that. I probably will be considered a hobbyist by most of you, but I do take this seriously and have invested much in the way of equipment. I spare no cost and it is well appreciated (my tip jar is exhibit A). My sound is superb and compliments abound at nearly each show. I am courteous enough that people from all over this metroplex keep coming back even though I have witnessed more engaging KJs in my years. A smile and an open face wins people anyway.

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

I think you're missing the point, it really doesn't matter whether one or both of the host at this venue is a pirate or not, because even if they are – they are not going to be sued. Only the venue will be sued.

Someone who can be classified as a "technical infringer" still is not causing any harm to the label are they? Or is it that you simply feel that they must pay the "protection money" simply in order to use a laptop? That has already been determined as not actionable in almost a dozen states.

But keep this in mind: whether either karaoke host is a pirate or not is inconsequential because those lawsuits are for trademark and not service mark. The lawsuits against venues currently are strictly for service mark which is not trademark related and therefore completely independent of anything actionable under trademark.

Because of this, whether or not even you are "certified" or even have a "covenant not to sue" doesn't really matter: unless you are paying sound choice a portion of your gigs or classified as a sound choice entertainment employee, your part in this lawsuit for service mark really doesn't matter.

A perfect example is the recent lawsuits in Texas where the karaoke hosts don't matter but the venues are still on the hook. At this point in those lawsuits, whether their host is certified (or even a help licensee,) doesn't keep the venue from being sued. The venues are still on the hook – and Harrington is pretty proud of that. Do you seriously think that Harrington is going to not go for a quick settlement for a few thousand dollars because he wants to protect your $150 night gig? Knowing him, he'll want both: a few thousand dollars as a penalty to the venue, and then a chunk of your nightly gig – if you can keep your job there and agree to be his "employee" or "affiliate."

But it is entirely up to you whether or not you want to trust anything that he says after seven years of broken promises.

PEP is suing the bars and clubs that are not paying them for protection money to display this "service mark." and I believe that they will continue this method of suing until it is determined that it is also not actionable.

No one is calling you a snitch. My point is that it does not matter whether you are legal or not – they are suing the venues under the title of "service mark." They are free to sue any venue that displays that "service mark" whether or not that KJ is using a disk to do it.

Under the excuse of service mark, they can sue every single club that displays that service mark – and advertises karaoke that shows that service mark, including yours.

You are correct: they do not need any help from you. But your advertising either through a website or social media, simply makes that job of collecting and exploiting the information easier for them. You advertising the locations for your business activities is not being "a snitch."

And none of this matters when there is a lawsuit against your venue for service mark infringement – because it doesn't include you as a defendant. It doesn't matter how often you work or how little you work, it only matters that the "service mark" is being displayed at that venue. And even if you are certified and have a GEM license, your venue can still be sued for the service mark infringement.

This is what's happening whether or not you like it.

C. Staley, I'm going to accept Your responce to me as an apology even though it didn't read like one.

The next time I am at that venue I will ask to reread the letter. I do not recall any mention of 'Service Mark' in it. That is not to say that I could not have overlooked it and only thought it as TM issued.

I search this site as such > https://dockets.justia.com/search?parti ... mostrecent < and it always shows cause of action as TM infringement

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

you can take that any way that makes you feel better – I'm not apologizing for anything – and neither should you.

and a very good possibility that this does say trademark infringement – because you are not in the seventh or ninth districts where it has already been declared is not actionable under trademark law.

You said you're in Colorado correct?

You will see in other posts that even though Texas is also not in the seventh or ninth districts, the trademark application of the law toward venues has been effectively tossed out. Harrington is keeping the service mark angle in order to keep the venues on the hook. I believe a little pushback by the venue's attorneys pointing to the seventh and ninth district as well as the recent ruling by Judge Rosenthal in Texas may eliminate trademark as a cause. At which time Harrington will simply switch over to service mark.

In either case, a lawsuit will proceed no matter how legal or illegal any KJ is that plays there. The KJ's are not being included in the lawsuits because they are directed squarely at the venues.

But notice that the letter is written to your venue – not to you or the other KJ.

C. Staley, I understand what you are saying and it does make perfect sense as a fallback for PEP. If courts rule favorably for them on that then SCE engages itself toward the venue. I realized, and so does Lone Ranger, from the get go that SCE wants to garner Entertainment on the National Level and (depending on the Courts ruling) may be able to accomplish that through settlements with the venues. I take issue with PEP/SCE strongly on that. I do have to agree, though, ingenious it is. I think Lone Ranger said when you dance with the Devil he calls the tune and that is what will happen to these venues and any host regardless of status (infringer or pirate) with that venue. Presently, here 'Service Mark' I do not believe is any issue.

I do have a CNS and understand the above perfectly well. I went through the Audit and it only cost me some time, I refused to pay one red cent toward it and stated to them I would go through the audit to keep them from a reverse suit. They agreed to waive the fee. They also agreed to some wording changes. In retrospect, I think they knew at that time there was a good chance that TM infringement would not hold up. They just wanted to see my library. So the Forensic thumb drive smiled on me. I am in that contract with them. I will honor my part of it, never having to pay tribute for a HELP, GEM, SCE subcontractor or anything else if I do not want to and still be able to use their 'shifted media' tracks. I believe for the rest of my years (I am 67 and 3 more years tops) that I wish to KJ there will always be some venues open to my particular circumstance in regard to PEP/SCE for weekend entertainment. It will be a cheaper rate for sure because of what PEP/SCE as the 'devil' will be dictating to their 'venue minions' as long as 'Service Mark' does not become an issue.

I still think Juke boxes are the future (for ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, RIAA) and SCE wants to offer equipment and hosts to venues when that day comes never again to produce music.

If TM infringement and Service Mark are both shot down at a later date then they will have already garnered for a specified contractual amount of time with certain venues SCE entertainment.

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

But what they are doing has absolutely nothing to do with you being able to use their tracks. Your agreement with them only protects you from being sued by them for trademark infringement – it does not protect the venue from being sued by them for "service mark infringement"– and that doesn't include you.
That may be true, but it's also quite possible that a lawsuit against your venue for service mark infringement may do nothing but eliminate you from the loop and replace you with one of their own KJ's willing to send them a weekly booking fee, a report, and photographs. And remember, they are now offering to send a GEM set "free" to whoever might take your place.

What is it that makes you think PEP will have some loyalty to you if someone else will send them a small check every single week? I don't think they will have a problem selling your spot to someone who will mail them a weekly check in exchange for dropping the lawsuit and a nice long-term contract from your venue. Again, this completely eliminates you were from the loop.

Harrington has stated more than once that he is out to make money – not to make friends. This is only business.

Staley, Sorry I edited my reply after your responce. Please Reread my statement.

I do believe their legal issues will take more than 3 years to accomplish if they are successful in their endeavour.

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

I have not recently reread Safe Harbor program that PEP is offering to venues, but the last time I read it all that was needed was in writing from their Host that the Host was compliant and then the venue could enter Safe Harbor. Correct me if wrong.

On the other hand, if the venue had their own system and were 'pirating' or what they call 'infringing' then the venue would be refused Safe Harbor status.

I told my venue that received the letter and email to do just that.

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

That's not precisely how it works.

Venues that sign up for Safe Harbor and follow the rules require their operators to submit to review by us.

After our review, the operator will come out of the process with (a) certification, (b) a GEM series license, or (c) a HELP license. If the operator does not cooperate with the review, or does not either remove all of his Sound Choice and Chartbuster Karaoke tracks or acquire appropriate licensing, we will report that to the venue, which will then have the choice to fire the operator or be sued.

Of course, if the operator is already licensed, then there is no need for an additional review at that time.

This is so ridiculously stupid (and I'll wager illegal) on so many levels it's not even funny.

It stinks like the old mob "protection racket." Notice that every single option here requires that the KJ and/or the venue sign an ongoing legally-binding contract with them? What does that smell like to you?

Once these contracts are signed, the next in line is the "service mark" license and another contract and a weekly payment... It amazes me how they have no problem coming up with a reason to churn out yet another contract for venues or KJ's to sign, but it's been impossible in 7 years to produce a single new song as a product?

But they can now afford to "give away" $5,000 worth of oldies free?.... if you sign their NEW contract and agree to work for them, they'll be happy to.

except doing as you have done and not using the tracks at all.


$7,500...but who's counting?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

If people can't be bothered to pay to use our IP, it really is best that they simply not use it.

I'm not sure why this is a controversial position to some people.

if i had not gone through the audit, i still paid to use the IP, i bought the discs which is what you want all hosts to do...just pay for what they use.
wanting pirates to pay to use the IP is not controversial in any way, but saying that anyone who does not do an audit has not paid for their music is. without an audit does not mean not paying for their music, we are back to guilty until proven otherwise.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens