Karaoke Forums

Funny thing on blank cd's 90% of what I used them for was just like picture storage and files. It was rare I used them for music, that was what my flash drive was for .

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Sorry but I am not going back to a player that won't play the music videos in the filler player on my laptop because I have the wrong graphics chipset and the makers of Compuhost won't fix that. I can play my videos in Siglos so I say that the claim that CompuHost can't fix it is total BS.

_________________
The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

We all know why Piracy exists, basically consumers feel if they can get something for free why pay for it? Actually nobody cared about the Piracy until it started cutting into their profits. Not the manus, not the hosts, and not the venues. Even PEP didn't happen all at once but has been evolving slowly into it's current business form. There can be no solution to the problem as long as there are so many forces all pulling in different directions. Unless you can come to some kind of consensus, then it is every person for themselves out here. Despite numerous tips given to PEP, because of limited resources and they being but a small, little, tiny weenie, company, they can't respond to the rising tide of pirates. It would take some kind of government agency to stop piracy, and I just don't see karaoke rising to that level of importance. After all most of us are just small players on a very large stage. It is left to each of us to operate and protect whatever piece of the pie we have, nobody else can be relied on to do that for you. Like it or not we are all on our own.

Once you can see it or hear it unaided by any sort of technology, it can be pirated. A new "rule, law, program" or whatever is not going to stop it.

First-run full length movies are being pirated right out of the movie theater on cellphones.

I don't believe you can outlaw a "format" like mp3+G because it's a useless proposition.

The other "problem" with this business is the ease of entry for anyone to show up with crappy equipment, a purchased hard drive and then they call themselves "a professional entertainer." All you need is a credit card. years ago, I suggested that manufacturers should charge outrageous prices for the karaoke music for ONLY professionals to use. At that time, a Pioneer laser disc cost $164 for roughly 28 songs. Not only was the form of entertainment new, but the price in cost of equipment and music was prohibitive for most people to get into the business.

There were very few karaoke hosts in any particular city because of this high cost of entry as well as the availability of different formats and brands. consequently, the prices that these karaoke hosts could command were relatively high – $250-$300 per night. Even when manufacturers changed to the 5 inch compact disc in the late 1980s, the equipment necessary to play these discs was still expensive. The DK karaoke 60-disc jukeboxes that could be daisy chained together, were still very expensive. There was no such thing as key control – it was "pitch control" with a knob that simply sped up or slowed down the music.

Back in the 90s, manufacturers explained to me that while keeping the prices high seemed like a good idea, it wouldn't actually prevent any piracy – it would make it more attractive. I doubted that logic then, and I doubt it still today. Manufacturers told me the reason they were selling to the general public was literally because (and I'm paraphrasing here); "karaoke host purchase more disks at one time than the general public however, there are a lot more people in the general public." Once the manufacturers made this available to everyone – then piracy also became available – to everyone.

Even MediaCloq didn't slow down piracy one bit. It caused headaches for the manufacturers because the format of the discs appeared to the player to be that of a computer format and not a playable format. In any case, it didn't slow anything down.

Also keep in mind that during those years, there were approximately 30 or so karaoke manufacturers. All hits, sunfly, sound choice, DK karaoke, zoom, music maestro, Pioneer, JVC, RCA, Star Disc, chartbuster and the list goes on. All competing for the same slice in the general public market.

Some of those manufacturers did their own fair share of pirating in order to continue to release a steady stream of music for the public to buy. That explains why DK karaoke is no longer in the US market. US manufacturers were not following our own laws in the production of karaoke music and were pirating music faster than they could legally license it. This made it very difficult for companies like DK to put out a disc of songs for any particular artist when other manufacturers had already released those songs – without licensing them in the first place. And that simply added more economic pressure onto the manufacturers that were operating within the confines of the law.

So is there a solution to the rampant piracy that plagues this industry today? I don't believe that there is because that genie left the bottle years ago. The manufacturers that were creating karaoke music illegally – and then distributing it publicly and cheaply – is where I believe the root of the problem lies.

There are some businesses in this world where you cannot buy the tools necessary to operate in that industry unless you already have some type of official training, work experience, schooling, and licensing. This particular business doesn't require anything like that; all you need is a credit card. It's not surprising that every Tom Dick and Harry on the street wants to hang out a shingle and for $50 and a few beers, sing with their buddies in a bar every weekend.

So, guided by a few manufacturers, that pirate ship left the docks years ago and I don't believe it's coming back anytime soon. I know that it sounds a bit on the pessimistic side, but I also believe it's realistic. Legitimate karaoke hosts have been burned by manufacturers and their marketing practices almost to the point of extinction.

Unlike other manufacturers, Pioneer didn't artificially inflate the cost of their content. The primary reason Pioneer Laserdiscs cost so much was because they were producing videos. They had to pay actors, crews, get licenses to film, etc. They cost so much because it cost a lot to make them.



This may have been true in the 90's but no longer. Now it is more a function of local economics, and the salesmanship of the host.

There are more hosts than ever both legit and pirate. There are significantly fewer brands available. There is essentially only a single format now - MP3+G.

Yet, I don't load gear for a single night gig for less than $300 any longer. I am not the only one in my area doing this.




The reality is that it only takes ONE person willing to pay for it and then share it. The pirates made it available to everyone long before the manufacturers.

I suspect some manufacturers knew that piracy would take it's toll no matter what and they adjusted their business models to compensate knowing there was a shrinking window in which to make some money before it all fell apart.




I believe you are incorrect. You even gave a perfect example of why -



Someone PAID to go into the movie and then recorded it at reduced video and audio quality. Release groups want to be the first to release "new" content. It's a reputation thing for them. And they can also monetize it more effectively if they are the first - even at poor quality.

The same applies to karaoke content. Someone paid for the content initially and then chose to give away. The cost of the content doesn't come into the equation for some people. Once one person shares it, anyone that wants it can get it.

The real reasons why piracy continues -

1) The "bad guys" can monetize it
2) There is little to no risk for the average person
3) Some people think it is free out of ignorance
4) Some people know it's not free but want it for free anyway

The list goes on......(see the article link at end of post for more)



I know a lot of legit karaoke hosts. Some new, some old. I have yet to come across anyone that shares your view that the manufacturers are to blame. Do some feel the manufacturers could have done more to prevent piracy? Yes. But no one I have ever spoken with thinks they could have stopped it, or that pricing content higher would have shielded legitimate hosts.

----------------

If you want some REAL, SOURCED, information from people that actually know what they are talking about on why piracy exists and why people pirate, I suggest you read this article -

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/pirate-software.htm

It deals with software piracy, but the same information applies to movies, music, and yes......karaoke.

_________________
-Chris

"Captain Obvious" strikes again... Of course it cost more to produce and therefore a higher price. The point you missed was that the end price -- for the karaoke professional -- was high enough to keep out the general public.

It would not be "a function of local economics" if the manufacturers had not sold to the general public and cheaply.
Because you don't move your equipment like most "mobile KJ's." All of my systems moved everyday, they didn't sit for 3,4 or 5 days waiting for the weekend. A "single night gig" for us is a simple private party that starts at $450 and goes up.
"The reality is" that you missed the point again. Read the first sentence of my post s-l-o-w-l-y.
Again, you provide an incoherent comparison. Have you downloaded a karaoke song that was "filmed" with a cellphone or other device? Nope. The general public doesn't have direct access to the digital movie files of first-run films but pirates can get access to the original karaoke digital files (to share or be shared between) for a very tiny fee. Wouldn't you rather pay $2 for the digital file than sit through copying one with your cellphone first? . And your pirate buddy would be happy to exchange the ones he paid $2 for with the ones you paid for... etc...

Except that the very "release groups" you are talking about do NOT have the original digital movie files. Karaoke pirates do and that's a BIG difference.
You mean there are "fake reasons?" When you distill your 4 reasons above, it all comes down to "access" doesn't it?
1) Because the "bad guys" have access to it
2) Because the "average person" also has access to it.
3) Some people think it's free... because they have "free access to it."
4) Some people know it's not free, but they still have "free access" to it anyway.

Manufacturers are responsible for the widespread public access which made it easier to pirate and some manufacturers pirated at their own level, cranking out discs with no regard for licensing. Chartbuster and Music Maestro were practically famous for it. And who was it that stated "it's cheaper to pay the penalty than it is to pay for permission?" Yes, your own heroes. So when it comes to "piracy" the buck did in fact, start right at the manufacturing level.

If you couldn't have purchased your karaoke discs off ebay at $1 or $2 each, but had to pay $15 to $25 each from a manufacturer, I doubt that you'd have as many systems as you do today. And even if you did, I doubt that you would have any one of those systems sitting idle in a club -- making zero money -- for even a day.

You entered this business near the tail end.... discs have very little value, downloads are cheap, piracy is rampant. Even your buddies at PEP aren't trying to stop it... they are simply licensing it.... and suing primarily the venues, not even the pirates. So yes, the manufacturer(s) do in fact, share the blame for providing access to it and now enabling it.

If discs still cost $25, many legit hosts would be pirates too I don't think it has much to do with the manufacturers either. They could sell discs for $100 each and it would just create more pirates.

This is very simply the free market at work. Technology made it easy to produce a million widgets (i.e., copies of karaoke tracks) for almost nothing, so therefore the value to each each widget goes down. Once the technology existed, nothing the manufacturers could do about it. They don't control the market factors, they are subject to them. Artificially keeping the price high when the actual cost to produce those pirated tracks is approaching $0 just produces more of a black market. The business is forced to set the price where the market will bear, which seems to be the $1-2 digital tracks. Problem is the margins went from huge to minuscule, so the "mom and pop" competition can't hang, leading to fewer and larger, leaner manufacturers.

That's just how it works. And on the KJ side, same thing. As startup costs go from high to low, not only for music but for equipment, the only natural economic consequence is more KJs, more competition, more supply, lower wages.

That's all economics 101. If the manufacturers want to make more $$$ at this point, they have to reduce overhead or sell a metric sh*tton of widgets. If the KJ wants to make more money, they have to similarly reduce overhead, which the shortest shortcut to reduce overhead is to pirate the music. And if the market will bear a sh**ty host with sh**ty equipment, well, not much you can do about that besides offering a premium product that someone is happy to pay a premium price for!

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

Chip - You have an opinion and anecdotal evidence only as to why YOU think piracy ran rampant in karaoke. I linked to a sourced article that goes into depth about piracy from people that examine it as part of their job.

As usual, you think you know more than the actual experts.

You are also a confirmed liar regarding at least one karaoke related matter so ALL of your posts regarding karaoke should be suspect.

_________________
-Chris

Chip's posts are no more suspect than Jim's are. Anything coming from PEP through their legal spokes man really needs to be taken with a big dose of salt.

Actually, I have zero reason to not trust Harrington. *I* understand why Harrington can't tell us every detail about cases. As Harrington noted, Chip exploits this to increase the impact of his own FUD.

And there is that outright lie that Chip told, that you and others are willing to ignore or forgive because you need or want a spokesperson to beat your drum for you.

_________________
-Chris

A person tells one lie and that person can no longer be trusted? Ever heard of politics? Nizzle, please.

_________________
DJ Don

No more so than you need Jim to beat your tom tom. Just like you forgive Jim when he makes a miss step.

All this talk of high prices..

My last Eagles disc purchase (18 songs) by "Backstage" was $1.00..

Based upon this information, was it real, or was it Memorex?

It's not just the one lie. It's the repetition of the lie. It's lying about something so simple. It's lying about something that with only a small amount of effort can be discovered. It's a lie about something relevant to what each of us are involved in every day.

It's also the history of the individual. Lack of transparency, outright secrecy, and the ongoing, relentless flood of FUD at every turn.

_________________
-Chris

Jim is just as secretive since he hides behind his agreements with Sony and other companies to avoid embarrassing questions with equally embarrassing answers.

Standard business procedures.. Nothing to see here, move along..

There was a brick & mortar karaoke store around here around the early-mid 90's that also ran multiple shows as well (if I remember it was like 15-20 rigs complete with music and most of them were running at least 4 nights on up - for the time it was unreal) - but were one of the first to charge $100 per night in the clubs when we were all charging $250-350 for weekly club shows. The 'store' would get their shipment of discs in, open the disc, burn copies for each rig, then shrink wrap the disc and sold it as new. Needless to say they had almost every song from every manu in every rig. So in that respect, there was no money paid out to pirate - they were flat out stolen over and again. Luckily that company and all the rigs went out of business in the late 90's.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I've said it before, every good KJ needs a shrink wrap machine in the back room..

What makes you believe that I have some responsibility of "transparency" to you? I think you might be surprised at the number of forum members that I am "transparent" with annnd..... it's just that you're not one of them....

Sorry if that hurts your feelings or makes you feel like you're not a member of the club... but you're not.

If you talk to publishers instead of KJs, you will likely find those who share Chip's view.
Universal for example, shared their veiw in exhibit 5 of their suit against Digitax. It's in an e-mail exchange Jerrold Grannis and Alan Jacobi.
Here's some excerpts:

_________________
KNOW THYSELF