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People who media-shift content on a 1:1 basis without certification don't negatively impact sales, but they do have a strongly negative impact on our ability to police the illicit use of our IP. Every time we investigate a KJ who is actually 1:1--something we can't tell other than by doing an audit--that's a waste of our time and our money because, as a matter of policy, the lawsuit against that KJ will get dropped upon proof of 1:1 correspondence. It's also a waste of the KJ's resources. When you have limited resources, that's a significant problem.



I believe I've made it clear to you, both here and on the forum, that we don't think that HELP is necessarily a good option for KJs who are happy with what they have in terms of SC discs and who are 1:1. In that situation, the best solution is certification, and we're reopening certification for that purpose.

HELP is, however, a good program for operators who don't meet those criteria.



The default position when dealing with IP and commercial use is "don't copy." That's the deal. Perhaps one day there will be a different law that spells out some range of copying that's permissible.

That being said, we actually do accept that the statement means what you suggest. That's not the issue. The issue is that taking that material and using it commercially is "sharing." The fact that an operator gets paid for sharing the material makes it worse, not better.

That's why we don't care about private use. We don't care if, in private, you play a track from a CD or from a hard drive. That's not the issue and it never has been.



I meant "new" in the sense of "different," not the sense of "novel."



No, I'm saying that if you don't like the terms we offer when you want to duplicate the product for commercial use, you're certainly not forced to accept them. You can do what was originally intended.

As for the "deal," the sale of that disc occurred in an environment where there are rules set up by the Copyright Act and the Trademark Act. One of those rules is that you can't copy for commercial purposes without permission. I've pointed out the language that makes that so. You can wish that the law is different, but it's not.

As a practical matter, we can accept that media-shifting is the way of the world. Part of that is the ridiculous rules that music publishers have regarding other media forms, that made it nearly impossible to put out material in a format that people want. As sympathetic as we are to KJs' desire to media-shift the product, unregulated media-shifting poses some very real problems for us. Because our products are widely pirated, we need a way to differentiate the good guys, who want to media-shift in a way that doesn't hurt us, from the bad guys who pirated all their material. So to deal with that, we needed a mechanism to make it happen. That mechanism requires that we assert the law as it stands today.



And I'm glad you are.



You make a good point--and I see that others have made this point as well, and I want to acknowledge it. I was taking a narrow view. Whether an individual KJ uses original discs or a 1:1 hard drive, the money from that activity is the same to us, and that's all that I meant.

Yes, in the broader sense, the fact that KJs have the technical ability to media-shift has made them more likely to purchase and use the SC products. I appreciate being corrected on that point. I will say, however, that media-shifting has not been an unrelenting positive for the company, and on balance it has probably been a net negative because of the piracy it enabled.



I want you to know that we appreciate the support you've given over the years, and even to today, to our efforts. We have not always agreed about things, but we've been able to keep it civil when we did, and your input has been not only invaluable to our process, but also an indispensable key to the adjustments we've made in that process all along.

The same goes for many others who are reading this thread.

But we do need to make something clear: A 1:1 operator who is satisfied with his holdings has no need to become a HELP licensee. It is far cheaper and easier to become certified. We are not looking for something for nothing. I recognize the need for you to put some pressure on us to make the certification program permanent, and in an ideal world it would be permanent.

It is temporary right now for a simple reason: There are evidently many KJs who are 1:1, who knew about the certification program, and who for whatever reason decided intentionally not to become certified, then became worried when the certification program was taken away. Judging from the calls to our offices, a lot of these KJs have been sufficiently awakened to the need to get certified. We put a limit on it to test the response. If we get a significant number of new applications, then we'll keep it open. But if we don't, there is no reason to keep it open. In that event, we'll find another way accomplish what certification accomplishes. You may like what we come up with, or you may hate it worse than HELP.

If the response to this program from people who know about it is insignificant, we'll find another way to do what we need to do, and while that will include giving people who didn't know about the program and policy the opportunity to join in, it will be more difficult on those who knew about it and made the calculation not to participate.

Above all, our policy has always been to be reasonable. If we can adjust something to make it better for the KJ while we still accomplish our purposes, then we do it. If a fee we've established is too much for someone to afford, in a demonstrable way, then we usually cut it. Everything is negotiable to a point.

One more thing, which I forgot to add: The certification program is specifically directed toward leaving "dolphins" alone. We use the certification program to identify the dolphins.

You are not the POLICE!!!! You attempt to be because it is close to the only form of revenue you have. It really is that simple.

Karaoke hosts across the country are making money using (largely) Sound Choice content. I don't blame them for wanting a piece of it.

You might say "So is Music Maestro" but the fact is that pirate hosts play a lot of Sound Choice because it 1) is often the best, and 2) often the only karaoke track for a particular song.

I have attended close to 500 different karaoke shows across the country. I would say that a maximum of 20% appeared to be mostly or totally legal. That's a lot of revenue lost, especially considering that by far the most common track played at those shows was Sound Choice.

I have no dog in this fight. I am not a working KJ. While I guess it would be nice to see the 900 disks I bought go up in value, it isn't going to make or break me. But if I were a working KJ and had spent ten thousand dollars or more on a legal collection, it probably would brown me off to see pirates having the same content for peanuts. They get a lot of dollars by evading copyright; and it doesn't bother me a bit to see Sound Choice getting some dollars to enforce it. The HELP program seems like a reasonable deal to me, especially if I can still get an audit and use my legally purchased disks. (Not being in the business, I won't bother. But if I ever decided to do a show for pay, I could.)

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

SC is not a police. They used the term, not me. They have ZERO authority to police. They are a troll. As has been stated time and time again, they would not generate any additional revenues of any measurable worth without regurgitating a dead product. Shall I provide a definition of police and shall I provide a definition of a troll so that people with an open mind can judge which fits?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

From the International Trademark Association, which is something of an authority on these matters:



http://www.inta.org/TrademarkBasics/Fac ... Sheet.aspx

So, as it turns out, we are "a police."

Hardly all... the major premise is factual and serious -- as hosts we've probably done more to sell products for some manufacturers than those manufacturers have done for themselves. We've never asked for a piece of their pie in that regard, but now at least one manufacturer is turning around to demand a piece of our pie. We may however deem the overall conclusion that we're all going to be seeing big monthly checks to be somewhat on the fanciful side. But pie is important, as are Parties!



I was just trying to be brief. Media-shifting itself doesn't remove anything, but you have to do it as a first step if the final step is to edit anything. You can't edit an original disc.



No, no, that's the critical point of the "OPT-OUT Contract". The terms authorize you to remove that stuff, in exchange for which you agree to not charge them for displaying it. The key point being the host is not obligated to remove it... if you want to leave the logo in but not charge the manufacturer anything, that's entirely your choice. And you go back to business as usual with a piece of paper saying you can't be sued for trademark infringement. Now that a manufacturer would jump to sign such a thing for fear of owing you advertising money probably falls under the tongue-in-cheek part.

That sentence should end "up until the implementation of the HELP program," should it not? I agree no one has done it in the past -- and it doesn't apply to a certification fee because a certification is its own transaction. But the monthly HELP fee is not only post-sale of the product, it's decades post-sale in many cases.

It is not a fee the buyers agreed to, and there was no forewarning at the point of purchase because the fee didn't exist yet at the point of purchase.

Harrington, Chris said ONE TIME fee for certification. Correct me if I am wrong, but did I NOT read that it would be the usual $150 fee for the original audit, and NOW $100 annual fee for mandatory subsequent audits, to keep the certification??

I have 39 discs from SC. I know I have said this a million times, but I thought the ORIGINAL $150 to audit such a small amount of discs was ridiculous. What in the HELL would make you think that spending $150 PLUS another $100 EVERY YEAR for those same discs would be worth it to me, or anyone else with a small collection??

It still isn't going to prompt me to buy more discs from you. I don't buy my music that way. I buy it by the request, which, more and more I am finding through sources other than SC. Many of the other companies are starting to put out those SC exclusive songs. They are seeing an opportunity to overtake the market. And their quality continues to get better and better. I carry my 39 discs to every show, and 9 shows out of 10 I don't even have to pull any of them out.

For those that have been in this business for twenty plus years, and have collected all the SC material, hey that is awesome. I would have, too, but since I got into this 2 years ago, as my soul source of income, I am not going to waste my money buying a ton of discs that I might only use for one song, when I can buy that one song elsewhere, with just as good, if not BETTER quality than SC? AND, I don't have to worry about carrying around MORE discs, and I don't have to pay ANYONE anything extra to use the product. It just doesn't make sense, on a business level, to pay for something twice, or continuously, just to use it. No. Harrington, your boy Kurt is lost, greedy, and out of his mind if he thinks these new programs are going to gain any traction in today's market. He is kidding himself, and I think, deep down, ESPECIALLY after the response on the forum from SC loyalists, that YOU know this whole thing is ridiculous.You are just doing your master's bidding, so I am sure we can forgive you.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

A point I would like to add to that last bit is that the technical capability to media-shift and then copy the results does and would still exist regardless of whether every single honest, 1:1 KJ had stuck with original disc play or not. The capability will continue to exist if every one of us voluntarily goes back to playing from OMDs tomorrow.

Hard drives didn't pirate music, people did. It should be understandable that us dolphins refuse to pay for the sins of the tuna.

You have a point!! If you do not have file sharing software on your computer, and you keep up with your security software, or better yet, just don't let your show computer, or hard drive have access to the internet, then there IS no file sharing capability.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

This serves to highlight the problem with a temporary certification program. People come into this business, drop out for awhile but retain their discs, and come back in at a later date. That happens all the time because "life happens".

Should every retired, semi-retired, or out-of-work KJ rush to get certification today on the chance they might go back to work in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years? They may not be planning to go back to work at all, but then something in their life changes that. Or what about the person who buys discs a few at a time over many years before turning pro and ever doing their first paid show, which is how quite a few get started.

If certification is no longer available in 60 days, or 6 months, or even six years then we have people falling though the cracks. This needs to be re-thought in more permanent and realistic terms.

The difference is that you voluntarily purchased their product, knowing that you were going to display their logo. It was not hidden, and it was part of the deal from the beginning.

If you can talk them into voluntarily signing a deal with you, great. But until that time, they owe you nothing.

I recently paid Amazon an extra $20.00 to buy a Kindle that didn't show logos and ads. If you could have purchased SC product that didn't show their logo, no doubt it would have cost you more than purchasing the logo version.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Those people who have worked with us over the years will tell you that their experience with us has been almost universally positive. We do everything we can, within reason, to accommodate people who want to comply with our policies.

The certification program has been reopened for 60+ days. We have not said whether it will continue after that. It may. It may not. But we have reasons for limiting it, not the least of which is to try to spur those who have intentionally delayed getting a certification into moving forward. If you are an active KJ who can show 1:1 correspondence and you haven't been certified, now is the time to get certified.

If there is anything I resent about your post it's your implication that we somehow don't think in realistic terms. Not everything we do aligns perfectly with every KJ's interest. What's good for our customer base is an important consideration, but it's not the only one. We have to balance a lot of interests--customers, vendors, the public, our litigation position, and our bottom line. Sometimes that requires compromises.

It is unreasonable and unrealistic for anyone to expect that everything we do will put their narrow interests first, to the exclusion of everything else.

I can see both sides of the arguement.

From a strictly moral standpoint, in a perfect world, that a person should be able to take the discs that they actually paid for, and shift them so that they can be used in the way that they need them to be used.

Which is why i don't understand why PRO licenses will cover the playing of a personal disc, but will not cover the playing of a legally paid for, downloaded file without addictional licensing.

However, we do no live in a perfect world. People steal, and like it or not, it is usually the honest people who end up paying for it one way or the other. After all, the people who run the courts, defend the people who have stolen etc still have to get paid. And it's your tax dollars that pay for it. That's just the reality of the system that we have.
cov
For me personally, i had nearly five years to get certified.. I certainly could have afforded it with some proper planning. Heck if we get right down to it, kurt probably would have granted me an exception IF i had bothered to plead my case and ask for it.

I may not like it, but i think of the $100/year as a direct consequence of my concious decision to procrastinate.

The one year deadline also gives me a real, concrete goal to actively find a paying gig.


I may not like the decisions the PEP has made regarding their policies but i AM able to accept/live with it

-James

That is crap!! You are accepting that $100 a year fee as a punishment for not getting certified before, and will just swallow it?? REALLY?? What kind of business practice is that?? You made a decision NOT to get certified during that time. Who the Hell is Sound Choice to punish you for that?? You are just going to be taken advantage of!! "You didn't get certified with us before, so now when you do, we can charge you an extra $100 a year to re-certify. Oh well, it's your bad." REALLY????

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

It sounds like a guilty until proven innocent model might be easier for SC's lawsuits, but that is not our legal system.

The only reason for such a heavy handed approach by SC is that they are so aggressive that many KJs with legit disks are sued and the cases go to court, and the court asks SC to pay the legal fee of the defendant.

If they made the investigative process easier and let the legit incorrectly accused KJs defend themselves before trial (without charging an offensive certification fee). Then the SC investigations would be appreciated by the legit KJ community. SC might even be LIKED if in the process of an investigation where the found a KJ owned the disks, the gave a $200 coupon to investigation targets who owned all the disks.

SC would waste less money paying legal fees for accused KJs that did not pirate, and their investigations would go far faster because the honest KJs would WELCOME an investigation as an opportunity, and Mr Harrington could spend more of his time on the guilty.

The program would pay for itself with quicker trials, and fewer lost cases by SC.

Under the current system both legit and pirate KJs fear investigation by SC. That situation does not have to be the case. Especially since the legit KJs all probably spent thousands of dollars on SC's products.

Has the certification reopened? If not, any word on when?

Since i don't wish to get into an arguement over my personal opinions, i will just answer. Yes, until i can find replacement files for the songs that i personally sing that i am happy with the quality, i am willing to put up with their rules for media shifting.

have a nice day

-James

yes certification has been re-opened. Given your expressed opinions so far, i don't think you are going to like the continued yearly fee, but you are welcome to contact Kurt yourself and ask for an exception

No word on when tho. There will be an annoucement posted here.

-James