Karaoke Forums

Paradigm - I have struggled through every single one of those items for years. It honestly kept me up a few nights wondering WTF. I actually spoke to an attorney once to see if there was anything I could do about hard drive sellers. Of course there was nothing even though the attorney was very creative with approaches. At most, I could have made things unpleasant for a while, but it would have cost me more than I was willing to burn and there were risks involved I was unwilling to take. In the end it helped me realize that it is more difficult than any of us think it is.

Why didn't the feds nail Bene for selling unlicensed, copyrighted material instead of tax evasion? Don't you think they had him dead to rights after a multi-year investigation?

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-Chris

@ HarringtonLaw....

Now, if you take away any Gag Orders and Non-Disclosure agreements, and make this case highly publicized (invite the TV News Stations into the Court Room with permission to have their film crews operating), throw in a stiff penalty AND a Jail Sentence, I'm sure you will start seeing a decline in piracy. People NEED to SEE and HEAR that the Manufacturers mean business, and are not making empty threats. Someone needs to be made an example of. Once everyone starts to see a few real cases (not these string of cases which have been aimed at the Pirate KJs (but appear to be going after legit KJs as well) for Trademark Infringement), then things may begin to change for the better.


So, you don't have the means to locate this particular person. What about all those people on Craig's List who are selling preloaded Hard Drives? Isn't there a physical address where the orders are being placed to? Aren't these Hard Drives being sent to the customers from a physical address? Where are those physical addresses... in China (or some other over-seas location), or in the US? If payments are not going to a physical address, then where are they going?... to PayPal?... To a Bank Account?... To some other collection account set up through a Credit Card company (such as Master Card or VISA)? The money/payment is going somewhere and being claimed. As long as that's all in the US, then a subpena for those records can be made. Who cares if the US Sellers are getting their Hard Drives from someone else over-seas????... Go after the people you have the jurisdiction to.... the Sellers in the US. It can't be that difficult to find a few of them and have them served.

Like Paradigm Karaoke just pointed out, if you purchase a few of these Hard Drives from these Sellers, you now have your evidence. I don't think any Judge would be able to dispute that the SC content on those drives are yours, and you (SC) shouldn't have any difficulty in presenting that you never Authorized that content to be downloaded in the first place. Thus, they are selling a drive that has stolen material/illegal content on it. I don't think that any one of these Hard Drive Sellers could claim ignorance (that they didn't know they were selling something illegally... not that Ignorance of the Law is a defense anyway). They are only in this for one thing, and one thing only... THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR!

GUILTY!!!!!!!!!!

Nail their balls to the walls. See how quickly others will learn when it becomes publicized.

Cue, that is my point exactly.
Jim, you are taking hosts to court because they have taken discs that they purchased, put them on a hard drive in a 1:1 ratio but did not ask permission first, and leave the discs at home purely because you can.
why not take the drive sellers to court because they are actually costing you money by taking discs that they may or may not have purchased and sell them to other people?
Honestly, which is the bigger threat to your business?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Don't you think.....no.....don't you actually KNOW that there are enough of these types around to keep SC busy for YEARS?



Again I ask - if it were that simple, why didn't the Feds do exactly that to Bene? They could have done that in a couple of weeks, maybe months, yet they took YEARS to bring him up on Tax charges! At what cost you you and I as tax payers on top of that!?!?

Look......we all want it to stop, we are all flabbergasted withhow someone can do it for YEARS with no consequences, but it is also obviously not that easy. I also think that you are letting your frustration misguide you into thinking that SC is intentionally ignoring it for profit.

-Chris

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-Chris

Follow the money.



Of course it is more difficult than suing KJs!
Think about it Chris, doesn't it seem to you that SC is just taking the lazy path?
If piracy is such a real problem (and I agree it is) then shouldn't SC put some "effort" in their attempts to curb it?

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

What you are seeing is part of the long history between a section of KJs who try to do the right thing and their reaction to some of SC's tactics over the years. KJ's were initially thrilled that SC was going to help curb piracy and they thought this move would kill off some of the pirates. They thought this would help return show prices to previous levels. But the perception changed quickly when the suits started and there were several things they did not agree with. How the "investigations" were handled, who was being caught up in them and the outcomes were some of the areas that caused a divide.

What you are seeing here is a result of an opinion by some. They feel SC doesn't try to curb piracy at the source by going after hard drive sellers. Accusing SC of not attempting to go after criminal charges is completely unfair as those must be brought by the proper authorities. But they certainly could go after civil cases and that's a part of the debate here. Also, in SC's defense, they never said they were going to fight to curb piracy, although I am sure they would have felt great (along with most!) if it had. They said they were attempting to recoup sales from those who were using their product without properly paying for it. One of the biggest sticking points is SC's stand on those who convert their SC discs to computer. A percentage of people have been caught up in suits simply because they played from a laptop. SC's has always stated that those are "technical infringers" and works with them through an audit process to confirm they are one to one.

I'm not going to go into great detail on all the specifics as most of it is within these threads. This is really just a quick blurb to get you pointed in the right direction.

If by your definition of allowing them to exist is based on the fact that Sound Choice is doing nothing to battle their existence, when they could, then I can see where you might see some contradiction.
So I will restate something I stated earlier because you may be correct.
"Chris, Jim… there has been no accusation that Sound Choice would promote illegal activities by 3rd parties for their own financial gain."
Allowing them to exist and operate openly is exactly what Sound Choice is doing by virtue of what they are not doing to battle them.
I stand corrected.

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

We've attempted three times to take down major sellers of preloaded hard drives.

In one case, we were very successful. We made a direct buy, then went to a judge. The judge granted us a restraining order and authorized the Marshals Service to raid her home and seize everything. I went on that raid personally. That seller was shut down.

The next time we tried it, the judge (a different judge, different state) was very unsympathetic to our situation. He granted a restraining order but declined to authorize seizure. On top of that, because of a clerical error in the clerk's office, the defendant was tipped off that he was about to be served with a lawsuit, and he was able to evade service on multiple occasions. Eventually the case had to be dismissed because even the Marshals Service couldn't serve him. He stopped for a while, but resumed selling once the heat was off.

The next time, rather than going through the major expense of a restraining order, we simply filed a new lawsuit. Things were going well until all of a sudden the judge recused herself, not stating why. A different judge took over--and he was extremely hostile to our claims. He granted summary judgment against us. We took an appeal, and the appeals court reversed, ordering a trial. We tried the case, but the judge granted judgment to the defendant even though we had proven that he was selling preloaded hard drives. That case is on appeal now and will be argued next week. We have also filed a new suit against this defendant based on additional sales that occurred after the first case was filed.

There are at least two other major hard drive suppliers that other karaoke producers have taken steps to try to take down, to my knowledge. One of those suppliers was taken down. The other operates with impunity.

This kind of work is very expensive--it involves hundreds of hours of attorney time per case, not to mention controlled buys (not cheap), and bonds must be posted to qualify for injunctive relief. The receptiveness of the courts varies from "rubber stamp" to "no way in hell." We get no help from the government except when ordered by the court. A determined defendant can thwart our efforts as long as the judge isn't willing to hold his feet to the fire. And we DO NOT have the authority to pursue criminal charges or jail time--only the government can do that. On top of that, most of these defendants have few assets--and there are lots more suppliers waiting to step in when one gets taken down.

It's easy to complain that we haven't done enough, or that we've taken the "easy" route. We've taken the routes that are available to us. SC is a small company with limited resources. We've done the best we can with this type of infringer, but it's like holding back the ocean by hand.

You all know that I support SC pursuing people, but wish they did it differently. Maybe they are taking the easy way out. I bet easy equates to cheap as well. The KJ cases are low cost and low yield. i imagine a hard drive seller case is much higher cost but the payout is the same or less. The judgement may actually be for a Million dollars, but what hard drive seller is going to pay that.

So it is a balance between cost of suit, what can be recovered, and actually putting a dent in piracy. SC has stated all along that it is about cost recovery and having a side effect of chilling piracy but not necessarily putting a huge dent in it.

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-Chris

Perhaps your readers would like to know what medium will be used to make this announcement (i.e. this forum, SC website, etc.)...

if it is an official announcement as indicated, I am sure that a link will be posted here to the appropriate place.

Major announcements, changes, new ways of doing things have all been promised before *and not just by Mr. harrington* non of it has ever panned out. There have always been delays, problems and in the case of stellar records, lawsuits.

I'm not saying that it's anyone's fault or that it's deliberate, just that until it actually happens I will unfortunately have to remain skeptical because quite frankly I am sick of getting my hopes all fired up that something will change, and then it doesn't.


-James

you steal my car, sell it, get caught not paying taxes on your sales, they will hit you for the taxes but getting you for stealing my car falls back on me.


@Jim
you are saying that you went to court with hard evidence, purchased hard drives with a paper trail and money trail from an online seller, showed that he was selling unauthorized counterfeit copies of your copyrighted and trademarked property and they judges found that doing so did not break any laws and you were the one in the wrong?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Except for the part about "you were the one in the wrong," yes, that's right.

I can not answer you as to why the Feds couldn't do this. All I know is, if I were to have called the Feds to complain about Bene, my call would have been ignored by the Feds (as it was when I called to complain about being contacted by a Nigerian Scammer, and that I even had a phony $50K check in my hand from one of them). Their response to me was, "Were you a victim?", and "Did you have any financial loss?". When I told them that I was not a victim, because I knew better than to attempt to cash that check, they said that there was nothing they could do for me since I was not a victim. I then asked them, "And if I had deposited that check, and then found out that it was no good, and the Bank now held me liable for the funds, would you help me get the money to pay back the Bank?" What do you think their answer was?????????????

You said that you contacted the Feds to complain about Bene. I'm pretty sure your experiences with that were about similar to what I just described.

As to your other comment, I never said anything about SC making a profit. My reference to "THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR" was in regard to the Hard Drive Sellers.






I don't understand why you can't pursue criminal charges. After all, aren't copies of your property on those Hard Drives you purchased? Can the Defendants show any proof that they own the original tracks which are now on those Hard Drives? If they can't, isn't that theft of your property? As to having no assets to pay a fine, isn't that where a freeze of their bank accounts and liens against any assets they might have come into play... even Jail Time in lieu of paying the fines?

And, as I stated before, PUBLICIZE these Court actions. Let the whole world know that you went after XXXXX and WON. Yes, you now put XXXX out of business, and someone else stepped in to take his place, but, if you now go after the new Mr. XXXX and win, and the word gets out about how much it cost him, less and less people might be willing to take the reins to replace him. Like I said before, make an example of a few, and some people will become fearful of the consequences. It won't happen overnight, and it won't stop everyone, but it will start to happen. It just has to be publicized. After all, why issue a Non-Disclosure agreement and protect the identity of a S**m-B*g!!! They don't deserve it.

Mr. Harrington. Are there any plans for Sound Choice to produce new music. And if so when. I think people are dying for Sound Choice to put out new music. I know I am. I will even prepay. I will buy every disc they put out. Thanks.

ok....
you are saying that the judges found that them doing so did not break any laws?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

MrBoo, I appreciate you bringing me up to speed. I do understand that most people here think Sound Choice is breaking too many eggs making the omelet.

I don't personally know how much the straight-shooting KJs have been aggrieved by this process, but it looks to me like a compliance cost. Sometimes it costs you money and time (like an SC audit) to protect yourself from liability, even though you've done nothing wrong. If I build something, I have to pay someone else to verify code-compliance even though I have no intention of doing shoddy work. My compliance costs to process credit cards (PCI/DSS compliance) run into the thousands, but save me even more in potential liability. A lot of this stuff is also a royal pain in the (@$%&#!) as well. When I switch my discs over to HD this year, I'll call SC and give my pound of flesh to the cause, I guess.

The person who calls it the 'lazy' route misses the point--businesses view effort as expense, not as ambition or industry. It looks like a no-brainer to me to go after the HD sellers, but I haven't tried it, so I believe the attorney who says it's a dry hole pumping money into trying to persuade judges and DA's that karaoke is important. Given the low startup costs of HD selling, it wouldn't even help that much if the cases were a slam-dunk.

But say there were a magic wand that made HD sales stop tomorrow, and you waved that and left the KJs alone. You'd still have all the pirates out working, probably propagating the existing copies, and in the short and mid term you've unjustly enriched them by improving their equity in their libraries by making them harder for new thieves to get. And I'd still be competing with the clubs that hire them.

I have a feeling that SC has probably floundered a bit and not always gone about this perfectly, but I also have a feeling that there's no way to do it that's truly effective that wouldn't draw complaints. Part of the animosity might be the natural human tendency to account for circumstances with a nefarious and baroque conspiracy theory when there's a practical, boring and ready explanation available.

correct


do you pay the lumber company to come see that you have made the house in the way THEY feel you should?


those are national; organizations that regulate credit card security. SC is just a manufacturer of materials, in this case it would be paying Visa to make sure you are swiping the card to their specifications.[/quote]

and i did the same, Kurt himself did my audit and he was a wonderful guy, great to talk to and it was a fun time. that does not mean i think i should have had to do it.
what if you now have to have every lumber supplier, nail supplier, insulation supplier, concrete supplier, etc. come and check your work on top of the national safety inspectors who already come out to make sure you are doing things as they want you to (for a fee), does that change how you feel?

it is not if karaoke is important, it is if copyright and trademark are enforcible. if you can hunt these guys down for it, than go for it, if it is not enforcible, then nevermind.
i disagree, just like the war on drugs, taking out the buyer solves nothing, but making it harder to get lowers usage just because tom dick and harry can not get it at a price they can afford. that is why cocaine is not $5 a pound, it is so hard to get in here that it costs a lot to sell.


SC is not trying to help you get more shows, they are not trying to stop piracy, they are only trying to get money from those that have stolen from them and all innocent KJ's that that have copied from disc to HD....they have said so themselves. ask anyone here, it is common knowledge.


you are right, any way of going about this will garner complaints and push back. you are a builder, could you imagine...
you bought a Milwaukee chop saw, you have two choices now (that they did not tell you about when you bought it) either get sued, or pay them to come watch you cut wood to make sure you are doing it the way they approve of.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Just to clarify, I'm a club owner. If I build something, I'm writing a check, not swinging a hammer. You're making a distinction, and a false one I think, between various public organizations and private ones. When I pay PROs like ASCAP, I'm paying a private company for use of my tools. We're dealing with intellectual property, not hammers, and if I use a hammer the wrong way I've still paid for it.


You're mistaken about PCI compliance. Paying to make sure I'm swiping the card to VISA's specifications is very precisely what I am doing.

Again, private companies can and do issue and enforce regulations on the use of their products and services. PCI-DSS standards are created by VISA and the other major issuers, and they certainly care how I swipe my cards, up to and including processing chip cards and point-to-point encryption right at the swipe. Thousands of merchants will throw out millions of dollars in equipment this year to switch to new swipers that the card issuers will require starting in October.

I also pay for regular audits from my merchant services company, to make sure I'm not exposing them to liability. They're a private, for-profit company, too. I've paid for literally thousands of dollars in hardware, software, fees, and network upgrades in service of meeting these standards, and will continue to do so as long as I'm in business. If karaoke is a viable business, it will sustain reasonable compliance costs.


Aside from the fact that I'm in a different industry, I'm essentially doing that now.


I'm talking about prosecutorial discretion. Just because something is against the law doesn't mean it will be aggressively pursued.


The "success" of the war on drugs is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. Demand creates supply, and always will. The 'choke point' is the clubs and jocks, IMO.


They shouldn't be trying to help me get more shows--it's not their business. My knowledge of this is reading news accounts of it on-line, and the impression I have is that a business that is using properly owned SC tracks, and who has media-shifted them without intent to use both copies separately, will sustain a fairly reasonable cost to return to compliance. I'm certainly willing to be disabused of that if I'm wrong.


But that's not what's happening here. I'm not a builder, but a better analogy would be if there was a known theft of a D-9 Cat and one just like it showed up on my job site and someone wanted to see my title. To meet your analogy, Sound Choice would have to be going around telling KJs they were running their rotation or sound wrong. They're just trying to get paid for commercial use of their intellectual property. In consideration of paying them a fee for that, I have the option of changing that property to a more convenient form in which I didn't originally buy it.

@ Cue and @ Big Jim..

I also belong to 419eater, an anti Nigerian scam site..

We have "Followed The Money" hundreds of times, and when a scam pops up, and bank info given out for money transfer, guess what? The Effin bank closes the account due to fraud.

Seems simple? It often requires a couple of emails, but yes, it's that simple..

Here in the states, I'm confident the hard drive seller would start having problems getting a new account after a few closed accounts due to fraud.

You can view some threads here.. https://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

Y0re mileage can vary..