Karaoke Forums

If you listen to Sound Choice. 9 out of 10 KJ's are pirates anyway and they can't be stopped when they have thousands of tracks that they have obtained in a way that Sound Choice considers illegal. Do you really think that anyone is concerned about the home user who makes some karaoke tracks using backing tracks he purchased on line? They can't nail the big fish in their nets. You wouldn't even be a blip on their radar screen. How about giving us an example of one of these tracks that you've made with you singing along to it? Upload it to the singers showcase so we all can see how well it came out.

Everyone who has responded to you have given you honest answers in good faith.
Why must you insult us with each of your responses by telling us you think we are dishonest?
Why would you bother to ask in the first place if you aren't going to listen?
If there is something you don't understand about the answers you were given, ask for clarification rather than calling us liars.

I'll give it one more try to help you understand.

There are many different ways to exploit a song and all of the rights to exploitation belong to the copyright owner until that copyright owner transfers them to someone else.
When you paid $1 for that song you purchased the right to listen to that song in your own personal space.
If you cut a deal with the copyright owner you could purchase additional rights to that song.

With a karaoke song there are two pieces of copyrighted work, the music and the lyrics.
But there are many rights the copyright owner owns by law that are in play when you make a karaoke song.
You paid $1 for a personal copy of the music.
You have yet to pay for the lyric portion.
You have yet to pay for the rights to synchronize those lyrics to the music.
You have yet to pay for the right to make a copy to carry around with you.
You have yet to pay for the right to distribute a copy to the KJ who will play it for you.
You have yet to pay for the right to perform the finished product in public.

If you ignore those payments due when you make your karaoke song and take it to your favorite public singing place and perform it there, you will probably suffer no ill effects.
Unless of course you sing in a place where music publishers and recording artists like to hang around, then you could be in trouble.

Feel free to call me a liar again, or tell me I'm wrong, but have the decency to offer an intelligent reason for doing so this time.

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KNOW THYSELF

Bruce - interesting point. I think you are saying that if I brought my paid for karaoke song from SoundChoice, that song would likely be illegal too. Boy, more and more this karaoke system sounds like a Mafia or Monopoly rigged scheme. I logged onto Ascap. They say they earn 11% of the hosts fees for expenses and the rest goes back to the artist. Sure.

Anyway, I'm sure Ascap will email me back that they sent a guard to my front door on karaoke night. To frisk me.

I thought the Ascap's were for the people who reproduce CD's and sell them on the streets etc. That would be a rip off. I agree.

But Ascap etc will bother a homeower or his host who legally buys Powerkaraoke and legally buys a song from Amazon (or their distributor).... jezz. Sounds monopolistic.

If I legally buy Microsoft Publisher (ala PowerKaraoke) and then make and print out a poster picture of myself, to display publicly, am I breaking the law there too?
Or use my purchased Excel to create a graph or spreadsheet to put into our annual report for the public, is that illegal? etc etc

The word public seems key in the discussion. Maybe some smart lawyer knows how to truly interprete the law and not just repeat what the Ascap types want us to believe.

Earthling. Sorry. did not mean you or the fellows on this site. I am referring to the Ascap types. I did not know this term until a few minutes ago.

I still want to nail down in writing from the ascap types. They apparently scare the nice karaoke hosts. unfairly.

I am learning.

ASCAP only covers the public performance rights and only for the artists they represent.

Copyright law grants the owner of a copyright these exclusive rights:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to
the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or
lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works,
pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform
the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual
images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission

The dollar you spent on your song only gives you the right to listen to it. The source you purchased it from only owned the right to sell you the right to listen to the copy they provided to you.
If you want the legal right to do anything else with it you will need to purchase that right from those who own the rights.
If you are serious about being completely legal with your recreation, check out the Harry Fox Agency http://www.harryfox.com/ this is your first stop for purchasing the rights you seek.

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KNOW THYSELF

Earthling - thanks for that good list of Ascap kind of places rules. This has been an eye opening day for me. Making 80 or so private songs to sing in my key and tempo twice a month or about 4 songs a month in a bar or camp site, seemed no big deal. But as you all say, doubtful that someone like me would be sent to prison!
At least not for singing.

So the big NUT is still there. Getting a host to play a customized song.
I fail to see why it is a big deal. As i said, the hosts that i have seen, maybe only 2 or 11 knew how to use their computer.

If gpierce9 takes his homemade disc to a bar and has the KJ play it so that he can sing from it, chances are he might not suffer any ill effects at all. If some music publisher, recording artist, rep of ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC were to show up at the place, it's more likely that they will target the venue for allowing an unlicensed song to be played, and they (the venue) will receive a legal notification that they are now liable for that. What happens next could be that the venue fires the KJ because that person allowed the song to be played, which in turn is now going to cost the venue fines and possibly legal fees.

I'm not justifying this, but just saying that that's why some KJs make a big deal over all of this. They're being cautious about possible repercussions from allowing a singer to hand up their own personal burn (or thumb/flashdrive).

Yes Cueball. that is why i've started asking, not just for myself but for the friendly host.

I am talking about the bars with 8 singer patrons and maybe 15 people drinking a beer listening.
I rarely see more than 23 people.

Maybe once i saw 90 people.

It just seems to me that whoever these orgs are, they must be sending out spies to such small time bars.
It seems to me that they should go after the big fish who sell pirate copies of their softwares.

And it seems to me that those Orgs (ascap etc) should state that they don't mean the small time guy with
just a few songs for himself and not for sale. Sounds chicken baloney to me.

Just thought of something. How is it that people can post to a public site like Youtube the karaoke songs such as Sunfly etc and even some that were modified with a guitar and some background canned instrumental ??

Public. Why is that ok ?

yet, making one's own personal karaoke song using a paid song ($1 per song. Don't forget that if i bought the full disk, it would be around $12) is deemed illegal sung by me in a seedy bar ??

I have been reading some other posts here about piracy. also about some kind of FEE that apparently karaoke hosts need to pay each week to some Association ?? what is that all about?

If a DJ or KJ buys disks and songs, why must he pay on top of that?

Sounds like a Mafia. Some group is getting a piece of the action ?

If I give a MS Powerpoint presentation to a client (public), I don't pay Extra money to Microsoft.
I bought the product.

Something sounds fishy in the karaoke associations.

Well, no more questions for you all. I read several old posts that have similar thoughts as me. That the Associations sound like Mafia. Since I am not a host, I guess I should not bother to find out why a Host has to pay some Association to play.

Except for the obvious pirate songs, I think the Associations need to work with the hosts and not create fear.
Eg come up with timely concrete examples of pirate disks etc. to help a host not buy them.
This is over my head. I thought i was doing some creative fun making my own songs for myself.

Anyway, karaoke seems to be dying. Hardly any singers. The hosts often have 1 version and don't do their homework such as knowing the "Key" before a person sings. They just throw a singer onto the stage and hope the audience is too drunk to notice. If I were a host, I would have the same songs on a 2nd notebook with a headset. then prospective singers can test the versions of a song, BEFORE they get up to sing. And the singer can figure out whether to drop a Key, etc. From what I read, having one's songs on a second computer might be some illegal thing again. Well then, maybe the industry will just die in the bars. Too many rules for the hosts. thanks for your help today, all.

One last thing for the "Makers" of real karaoke disks.
You do a poor job. They frequently do not use dots .... like I do to help bridge
myself into the next sentence. They assume that you know the song already.
Yet, tempos could throw off a singer.

Also, there should be a code when to sing HIGH on a particular word.
And make that word (s) in capital letters.

Too bad they couldn't use a simple method of having a scale in the background and
the words appear on the scale. thereby showing words that are high or low.

Too much to ask the lazy makers of legal songs. They pump out the disks to the market and then scare the market like hosts. at high prices. with an inferior product to sing with.
Idiots.

ASCAP BMI SESAC only scare the clubs, not the karaoke hosts, however if a karaoke host has anything that is not legal (home made tracks) in a club not paying their PRO (performance Rights Organization) fees, then whatever the karaoke host is playing can be nailed too. Nothing unfair about it.

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It's not a matter of they don't care about the small time guy making tracks for his own personal use, they do. However they aren't going to go targeting people for home use stuff. Now once it gets into a club is when it may matter. Because a club is for profit and they profit on the music being played whether it's a kj's or a customer bringing in their onw track. Now if that club is paying the PRO fees, then chances are slim to nil that anything would happen. If a club is NOT paying their fees, then chances start to increase for all involved.

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Hosts don't have to pay anything. There are a couple of manufacturers that are suing hosts that are flat out stealing the music and transferring the music without permission from disc to hard drive - but that has nothing to do with a person making a home made track.


The kj / dj doesn't have to pay anything to play anything, the clubs they play in do. Again, this is the PRO - performance rights organization (ascap, bmi, sesac), the artists join these organizations to protect their works and recieve royalties when they are played. Like on radio, tv, movies, etc - everytime you hear a song from any artist, they get a small portion, usually something small like $.01-05 per song for radio (which have to keep meticulous records of what was played and how often). TV/Movies pay a rate upfront then have to pay a small percentage of sales to the artists. Clubs pay a blanket type fee to cover anything played - but they must pay all 3 organization to be covered for all music, just being 'ascap' compliant like you mentioned your friend said he was only means that anything covered by ascap is covered, anything by BMI and Sesac are not covered.


Again kjs and dj's pay nothing on top of what they buy. No 'karaoke association' to speak of.

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Again you are confusing manufacturer legal actions against kj piracy with performance rights that have NOTHING to do with karaoke manus.


When you become a host you would see how unrealistic this request would become. Not only are there many many songs that only 1 version exist (not to mention if one has a large library are you going to take the time to play every single track and make sure it's in the proper key - sorry, if that makes me a bad host, then so be it - most songs are recorded in the proper key, if a song seems obviously off, then I look into replacing it), busier shows have no time to setup the current singer, then cue up other tracks on another computer for people to 'test' for the proper key and still keep a positive rotation, flow of the show, etc going. I may on occasion let someone sample if they ask (because my software does allow for this), but as a rule - no, as I do not carry headphone.
I've been at the same bar 7 nights for 20 years, karaoke is going very well, we abide by the 'rules' and not worry!

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Then why don't you acquire all proper licesning, and create a karaoke cdg manufacturing company and sell your product, I am always looking for a better product? Be a 'stand up' karaoke maker and make the graphics proper.

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Then you can get YOUR PRODUCT pirated, get an attorney, hire investigators, bring lawsuits and settle them before going to trial by "liscensing" your own "GEM SETS" and bring home a tidy profit. And don't release any new material for five years. That is how it works isnt't it???

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Probably 1000s of copyright infringed materials are removed from Youtube daily. Many of them songs sung to karaoke tracks. Some artists\rights holders police it, some don't care. The typical action is to tell Youtube to take it down, they do and that's it. It simply isn't worth taking it further.

If, by chance, you did happen to perform your creation in a bar that paid it's fees, and the copyright holder just so happened to be there, the most they would probably do is tell the bar not to play that any longer. Most likely if it were the artist, most would probably get a huge kick out of it.

Youtube She Drives Me Crazy Sting.

I'd like to see what one of this guy's karaoke tracks looks like. There are many homemade karaoke tracks out there that are made very well but there are just as many, if not more of them, that are terribly made and their creators think that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Hopefully this guy will post one of his on youtube so we can all check it out.