Karaoke Forums

Again Danny, that is the same game that Sound Choice is playing. Making it sound like they have to have these groups in place. They don't but the fact of the matter is they WANT to get paid royalties for public performance. If what your are contending were true, then there would be no legal way to provide a public Karaoke show. What national rights management office is covering you when you conduct a public performance of a track on a disc?

I'm not throwing this out there in a vacuum and just pulling stuff out of my butt. I'll admit I'm not a lawyer, however I have had to deal with exactly these types of situations with some larger scale shows (talking bands here). I do have a pretty good understanding of the current royalties environment in the US.

Again, read exactly what they said, you'll notice nothing in that wording contradicts what I have posted. That's their game right now because they really have no copyright enforcement. So what they're trying to do is make it sound like someone who we regularly hear from, is going to be watching over you if you play their tracks in a "commercial" environment.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

If that is the case then Sound Choice and all the manus have got it wrong. I still won't download at a show due to not wanting to do anything that takes up too much resources away from what I am doing and the fact that in the middle of the show I would have to rename and import the songs into the database before I could use it,

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Danny, you're not getting it. It's not that they've got it wrong, it's that they want to mis-lead you as far as why things are the way they are. It is the MANUFACTURER's choice, no one else's. However, as I've explained, they are happy to word things in a way that make it seem as though they have no choice in the matter. Personally, I believe (and logic make sense) that it's because they have a better chance of "enforcing" that licensing by making people think that one of these infamous groups is watching and will come after them. Face it, most of us have seen or have heard about ASCAP or BMI officials in our venues, how many of us can claim we've ever seen a manu or one of their hired agents in our clubs?

Now I'm not saying it's legal to download and use publically, I don't argue that at all. What I'm telling you though is the reason for that is the manufacturer's choice not a requirement of law or any other organization.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Actually when it comes to Amazon, Ascap nor BMI are involved. Terms of service only allow personal use of any tracK sold from their site (Amazon). The artist recieves monies for their publisher who holds the rights and Amazon is responsible for reporting how many times a specific track is sold (downloaded) so the publisher is paid a set amount per download from amazon.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

I like their downloads, and I personally like using them at my gigs..... doesn't get any more personal use than that......

Apparently I'm not explaining this well enough. Your are correct, ASCAP and BMI are not involved, that's because buying the music from Amazon, iTunes or the local record store does not involve a public performance. They are merely licensing you to have a copy of the copyrighted material. In order to conduct a public performance of copyrighted material, you need the permission of the copyright owner or their representative. ASCAP and BMI are that representative. They don't care how you got the track, they only care that you're performing it in public so the music user must be licensed to do so (and paying for the license is how ultimately how the copyright owner gets their pay). So yes, all the music services have to tell you that you only have a personal use right to that track, because that's all they can sell you. Notice they also include sync rights (i.e. you can't use it for a commercial). It's for the same reason, Amazon doesn't have the ability to grant you that right.

Now once you take that track into a club that is paying ASCAP/BMI fees for you to be there and conducting the "public performance", you've now been licensed to do so.

This is the same path that Sound Choice has gone down. However, they're pushing it one step further, because they want public performance royalties on their tracks but can only claim it on the "lyrics sweep". So without an organization to act as their representative for collecting those royalties, they're method is to try and recoup that revenue in other ways (i.e. forcing you to buy a whole CD if you're going to use the track for public performance, etc).

I'm sure I've probably made this about as clear as mud, so I'd recommend you guys read up a bit on ASCAP's site. They've got quite a bit of info that should help you out.

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DJ Tony
Let It Rip Karaoke

Back to the original question....

If a Sound Choice song is requested that is not in one's library, one could search Ebay for the disc, and if it is available, buy and pay for it. One then (according to contract law) actually owns the disc even though it is not yet in one's possession. One could then download said song from the newsgroups or another source and play it immediately. In the rare instance that one did not receive said disc within a reasonable time, one would either buy it from another source, or if unavailable, delete it.

Playing that game can end up biting you in the Rear end because if SC investigators see songs off that disc before you receive it, they won't give you a slide. In their eyes you would be a pirate unless you can prove you bought the disc in question via paypal or something like that before their visit. for myself I would not do it that way.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Actually I seem to recall one of the lawsuits against the file shareing sites like Napster stated that downloading a song from a p2p site where the origional disk is owned is not legal. The example given was someone on a trip could not download a song that they owned the disk for at home.


Pretty much downloading anything with a copyright from unlicened sites was found to be illegal.

I like the way the guy from River city Djs and Carolina Stars does it, he has a server set up at his home and all of his DJs and KJs simply stream the requested song from his server. He has it set up so the same song can't be played at the same time so there is no violation at all. He can run 10 KJs off the same set of disc and still be 1:1. Maybe that is how the guy the OP is refering to does it!

If you believe that one, I have a bridge in NY I'll sell ya

Half of Nigel's venues don't have internet available.

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Dave's not here.

You mean he really doesn't do it that way?

Then how does he do it?

If he does it that way he deserves everthing hes got comin' to em.

Mojo

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"It looks just like a Telefunken U47 !"

For $60-$70 a month a KJ can get wireless internet service anywhere! AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and even Radio Shack sell the the cards for PCs that connect for cell phone networks for internet service! So venues internet access is not a factor! Truckers have been using this for years.

All you need is an Adroid phone with a data plan.

http://www.mobile-stream.com/easytether/android.html

He gave up trying to spread that manure the middle of last year . . .

Now it's (from his human resources page):

"5. KJ's only; You will own or purchase prior to placement a good set of original karaoke music. Starter packs have the fewest repeat tracks and all the classic popular songs. Minimum expense of $500 for 10,000 Karaoke songs on original disks to start, available on eBay."

BUT, all the books are the same:

"River City uses common Karaoke books to loan but only as a guide and many song titles "specifically by brand name" may or may not be available depending upon the contractors amount of music."

He also states that the KJs are "independent contractors," yet expects them to sign a "non-compete agreement." I wonder if he's aware that anyone required to sign such an agreement is considered an employee by the IRS? And since they're employees, he's expected to pay their Social Security and withholding taxes?

Apparently, he's had a problem with the KJs and DJs behaving like independent contractors too . . . So he threatens the clubs with THIS jewel:

"IMPORTANT FOR CLUB OWNERS AND DJ's
We are a DJ service provider, all of our DJ's are under a Virginia non-compete contract and "all" future booking for our contracted DJ's must be placed through us. Once one of our DJ's works at your venue that DJ is exclusive to River City Pro DJ's and cannot work at your venue for a period of two years after his last appearance at your venue without approval from River City Pro DJ's! We take pride in our ability to to provide talented individuals at tough times, if you attempt to go around this we will sue the DJ and BAN your establishment from our services! The fee for purchasing future rights to one of our DJ's is $5,000.00."

<snork>
Good luck with that . . .

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Dave's not here.

Why did he take out the information on the server system, I thought it was a great idea?

Here's an update on my original post. I found out the information on how the kj gets the songs immediately. A singer that I know frequents his show. This singer likes to sing obscure Beatles, and 60's songs. So... anyhow, he requests a song, the kj doesn't have it, goes on the net, and in minutes HAS IT. I've discussed this with the singer before, so he calls me and says that the guy is BUYING the songs, so it must be legal. I ask "where is he buying them from" he says, the kj belongs to a site where you pay $24 dollars a year (I think), could have been $24 a month. For this fee, he has access to the site, and pays $.50 per song. Goes on the site, downloads, and voila, he has the song. I'm getting tired of telling (my friend) the singer that this is NOT legal, because he says "why don't YOU join this site. Am I wrong, am I missing something? I personally know the kj in question, and have been to his show, very nice people, BUT are they LEGAL, I don't know. Does anyone know of any sites like desdribed?

Rosario

Your assumption is the correct one.
Those sites are paid P2P sites.
The people who use them own stolen material.

Nope not legal. Even though he thinks they are because he figures he's paying for the service.

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