Karaoke Forums

So by your logic, the Senior discount on mass transit or at the movies should be illegal. What about "Kids eat free" at the local restaurant? The dance club cover charge for guys, but girls get in free? Platinum Flyers board the airplane first? All disgusting displays of favoritism?

By far, in all the different forums I visit, the leading cause of irrelevant tangents is the dreaded ANALOGY.....I have commented on this many times, so of course, one show up in a direct response to my post...

All analogies aside, I have not heard a tangible argument for the legality of being able to profit from alleged counterfeit material...

$$$$$$$$$$

In my experience, when people complain about the use of analogies (not about the aptness of the analogy used), it's because they don't have a firm argument to counter the point.

Nevertheless, comparing trespassing to infringement is not an analogy except in the most trivial sense. We usually refer to trespassing upon personal property (specifically intellectual property) as infringement, but qualitatively it's no different.

People, including you, seem to have difficulty understanding that an act that would be infringement can become legal when permission is given. They have little difficulty understanding that an act that would be trespassing upon private (real) property can become legal when permission is given. These are the same acts, the same principles. The difference is that real property is tangible (i.e., physical, able to be touched), and intellectual property is not.

There are a great many examples of profiting from counterfeit products and/or profiting from the unauthorized use of a trademark or even IP.

Companies sue each other all the time from infringement on these rights and ask for a share of the proceeds from the sales and/or a cease and desist.

This is of course slightly different from what we are seeing here, however, since the HELP program only covers the logo and not the underlying work, it is simply a loophole. A smart one if you ask me.

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-Chris

Very true... HELP is covering the logo. But I can't also help but think that PEP is at risk for contributory infringement of the publishers copyrights. Jim has already stated that his customers have already infringed copyrights by transferring content from CDG to other media.

Defined by Cornell Law School:

One who knowingly induces, causes or materially contributes to copyright infringement, by another but who has not committed or participated in the infringing acts him or herself, may be held liable as a contributory infringer if he or she had knowledge, or reason to know, of the infringement.

Ok, so at least SOMEONE recognizes that this could be considered "slightly different". As to whether it is a legitimate "loophole" is yet to be determined...

Regarding analogies, IMO they are a distraction from the facts of the original issue, and end up being more of a waste of time to counter argue, because you are debating characteristics of an unrelated area. I do not expect everyone to adopt my view, but I also will not participate in one, just because one might be put in my direct line of fire. Sometimes it just seems that argument for the sake of argument can be quite trivial...

Another angle to consider: How do you guys feel about a given person having to pay for this HELP program at the price it is at, given that it is undoubtedly escalated due to the agreement with publishers for, at the very least, the alleged illicit activity for which they were sued?

HELP participants paying for the settlement against PEP/SLEP??? That would be pretty crappy!! They did the wrong thing, and KJ have to pay for it?? That would be just ANOTHER insult to the customers of SC.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

The KJ's that stole in the first place.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Don't agree that it was "undoubtedly escalated".

The HELP program isn't exactly for customers of SC.

Those of us that have purchased SC's product and have complied with their policies have no use for the HELP program.

Insulting? No.

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Never the same show twice!

interesting way to look at it....
you may have 5000 SC tracks, and some of the ones you and your singers want are on rare discs (more than just 8125 are rare), so while you being a certified host may be able to get it...at an obscene rate or not at all because they are not sold, the pirate down the street has all 16,500 tracks. He is still a pirate because he has stolen all of his music, but since he has HELP, he has the blessing of SC and the publishers to steal it all and offer songs that you can not even think of offering.
now...that said....
what if it was payments for lets say 5 years...
that's more than the GEM tracks are sold for each, and it would open doors to more hosts who would not pay forever.
that would give the legit host a fighting chance against the forgiven pirates without charging the good guys forever as a punishment.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Ok.....

To think that the price point isn't affected by the agreement to pay publishers, which was spelled out very specifically in the original announcement, would be illogical at best.

Given the newer business model, and the fact that original product purchasers have little to no product to purchase, the newer purchasers would actually more clearly represent as customers, in a current sense.

A response from someone that has no personal use for the offering, and does not even wish to consider the circumstances from a third-party position, has essentially rendered their comments moot...

That is essentially what the original announcement concerning this agreement stated. It stands to reason that PEP would not be able to make this kind of offering without the blessing of the publishers in question, and to think that said said blessing did not come with a price ($$$) would seem gullible at best...

The best test of this is to monitor the fee associated with the HELP program. To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't changed since it was put in place. Normal "retail" price started at, and is still $199/mo (without any specials or pre-paid discounts).

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-Chris

Our original pricing, which pre-dated the settlement of the EMI/SATV lawsuits, has not changed.

Like most businesses, we evaluate and modify our pricing according to market conditions. No market conditions have justified any pricing changes, so the prices have not changed.

It is awfully presumptuous of you to suggest that the publishers' participation in revenue sharing isn't something we envisioned from the beginning, in any event.

Unfortunately, the best of anyone's knowledge does not eliminate the distinct possibility that the publisher's "participation" was being discussed throughout this process...

Oops...saw this afterwards...

Quite the opposite...as I said in in the response to chrisavis, I have little reason to doubt that this is the case, which would only prove the point...

Then I'm completely confused, because you seemed to suggest that we were "paying for the settlement" by giving music publishers a share of the HELP licensing revenues.

Your suggestion that there was any monetary settlement to "pay for" is an unwarranted assumption, since we've made no statement about it at all, and unless you were a party to the settlement (which you weren't), you don't know any of the details.

Publisher participation in HELP is a separate business deal from the settlement, in any event; one has nothing to do with the other except that they occurred at the same time.

I think that all of your comments in this regard serve as excellent examples of what happens when uninformed spectators speak with unwarranted authority on matters on which they have zero knowledge. You are never going to know the terms of our settlement with Sony and EMI. It is time to accept that, to stop speculating, and to move on.

It was not my intention to give the impression of stating conclusions. I merely wish to stimulate the thought processes of those involved or interested. One of the benefits of the Information Age is to encourage folks to reach out and seek education, as well as to consider options before making decisions or come to conclusions. To attempt to stunt this growth and experience is entirely against the spirit of a free internet, and, specifically, one of the reasons this forum exists...