Karaoke Forums

Is that what they seem to be saying? With all the difficulty reported by Jim and now All star, does it look like publishers just don't make enough money on karaoke to continue dealing with it at all?

They want to make as much with karaoke as they do with regular music. Well guess what? That's never going to happen while karaoke is considered an audio-visual product AND a niche market. They basically screwed themselves on that point.

They are trying to exercise as much control over something as they possibly can, but they squeezed too hard and choked all their customers to death.

Most of the profit from music comes from RESIDUAL streams, if the music publishers were not such slimy, corrupted, evil scum of the earth greedy bastards they would realize they could make a decent amount of money from residuals if they made it as easy as possible to make a karaoke track

Another scenario. The publishers wait out any current licensing without issuing renewals THEY then become the only legal source for new karaoke tracks, making all of the money, rather than just licensing fees. Of course, music prices would probably shoot way up. While track quality would be great - using original tracks - they would probably be sold as albums are. This would be in single artist collections, something like the Star and Artist series discs from SC and CB. Minimal user tracks per album.

If you wanted to take it further, they could issue a full Cease & Desist in regard to current karaoke tracks as a show basis. Easily done as this usage has never actually been licensed. Such an order actually doesn't carry much weight unto itself, but could be supplemented with lawsuits.

The difference would be that unlike SC, they wouldn't be looking for "settlement " income. Their goal would be to purge the market, leaving it clear for a fresh start where only publisher original tracks would be allowed for a legal show. A cornered market that would be much more profitable than the simple licensing fees associated with current recreations. It would take a few years, but they can afford to wait it out.

Yes, all of the above is pure fiction at this point, but there is absolutely no reason that it couldn't happen. As a matter of fact, given the current licensing situation, they actually have a little bit of a possible start....'-)

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Wow! i had never even considered that possibility, but now that you mention it, it does make PERFECT sense and would explain quite a few things. Course it will never work, not while the laws overseas are still reasonable.

-James

Yup, and keep in mind that it would be way more profitable for the publishers than the karaoke mfrs. - they wouldn't have to pay themselves the licensing fees that the manufacturers do.

Also, there aren't many U.S. mfrs. left even now. Stellar, SyberSound/Party Tyme, and Pocket? What other U.S. based? All Star seems to be on the way out, DT seems to have new releases on hold under current circumstances. Who else is left in the U.S.?

Like I said, a pretty good start on it..... if one were inclined to believe that the publishers had such a plan......

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You do realize that the music publishers and the music labels are entirely different entities, right?

With some limited exceptions, music publishers do not own or have access to "original tracks."

I do. Bad phraseology on my part. The two would have to work together, but the scenario remains valid.

The karaoke producers, and possibly KJs that use the re-creations would be purged in such a case.

Jim, since this is only a hypothetical, and a non-SC ick, I would apreciate it if you would add your thoughts on the possibility. Specifically, input on what could keep it from happening. I came up with this off the top of my head.

In other words, any additional knowledge in regard to this scenario would be greatly appreciated.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

The most likely thing that would keep it from happening is that there are antitrust implications for the music publishers and labels, particularly if they were to conspire, as you suggest, to keep other karaoke producers out of the market for karaoke music. The usual penalty for using your copyrights to violate the antitrust laws is unenforceability of the copyrights.

Another aspect of this that would keep it from happening is that music publishers generally have a fiduciary obligation to the songwriters to maximize royalties. In that regard, by shutting out willing licensees from the process, music publishers would be endangering their relationships with songwriters and exposing themselves to damages.

The third thing about this is that it's really not on the publishers' radar. The publishers are looking for new sources of revenue, but their attention is mostly focused on enforcement of public performance royalties. Even the present action against SC wasn't the result of people at EMI looking for a target, but of an entrepreneurial attorney who makes his living suing karaoke producers for insurance settlements.

Harrington Law, given what you just said, why are they making it so difficult for karaoke companies to create product? If it is a profitable service for them, why wouldn't they make it easy for you? I know this would only be your opinion.

It seems as if they are already shutting out willing licensees if it's becoming harder and harder for karaoke manus to feasibly acquire the licenses necessary.

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I think that if you look at what the publishers were historically able to command compared to today, the revenues are down sharply. 10+ years ago, the publishers could require significant per-song advances and large "fixing" fees because there were enough sales to justify those fees--10,000 or 15,000 copies gives the producer a large base over which to amortize flat fees. Today we live in an environment in which a popular disc might sell 1000 copies, if that.

Publishers have lowered their revenue expectations, but there comes a point at which it's not worth it to continue to do so.

So, I don't think the publishers are making it difficult per se, nor do I think it's all that profitable for them, but it's just the economic reality of the situation. There are many factors that go into determining what producers will be able to earn, and thus be willing to pay, and what publishers are willing to accept.

By the way, one of the reasons why foreign producers have flourished of late is because they have access to semi-compulsory licenses at a small fraction of the royalty rates charged to American companies. That changes the value proposition significantly.

Joe, why do you think All Star is on it's way out?? I was just at their site. They have never been speed demons at putting out new content, but they are still doing it. Their website is fine. They just aren't selling from SC's site anymore.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

According to one of their producers piracy is a big factor!

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I think it has more to do with this...
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=29808

Jim, while I can see most of what you posted, I'm a bit confused on the fiduciary issue. If they made more money producing and distributing their own product (yes, this would not gel with the other info posted, but we're waxing hypothetical here ....), would they not be able to pay the artists more? I understand that this would require something different than the standard royalty agreement, but.....?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Whether they would be able to pay the songwriters more (which is what I think you meant; the artists still get nothing in this scenario, although they would get something if you use their masters to produce the karaoke tracks) or not is dependent on what their other input costs are. Music publishers have virtually no marketing apparatus for retail sales, nor do they have any production studios. Those things cost money. I just don't see them making more money for themselves or for their songwriters than by licensing specialists to do it instead.

More generally, it's also an economics question. By locking willing buyers (karaoke producers) out of the marketplace, they would be altering the demand curve in a way that's unfavorable to the songwriters and the supply curve in a way that's unfavorable to consumers. That would create a deadweight loss to both groups, but because of the increased costs the publishers would incur, it would probably not be favorable on a net basis to the publishers, either. In fact, it's hard to think of a less efficient way of changing the system--everybody loses.

I think Joe's original post makes a lot of sense. EMI already produces a karaoke product and they are suing the strongest potential competition they have in Sound Choice. Coincidence?

Despite the common name, the publisher and the record label(s) are entirely separate entities. They no longer even have common ownership.

Hey Jimbo..

You owe me a new keyboard.. I spit up my beer on that line..

I'm not sure where you are based, but here in Hollywood, it's common knowledge that royalties to copyright owners are subject to "Creative Accounting" that ensures a minimum amount leaving the music publishers bank and arriving at the songwriter..



http://njnnetwork.com/2009/08/female-so ... music-biz/

I could go on for days, but refuse to beat this dead horse any further.. I'm sure you have Google..