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Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
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Author:  syw9 [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
Hi All,

Thanks in advance for your help on this. I am totally new to this Karaoke system.

I want to start a home karaoke system that I can sing along with my current karaoke DVD collections, but I do not want to spend too much $$ on new machine if necessary. Again, this is not for professional use, but amature starting a basic karaoke system. I know I have a home theather speakers, but I really don't want to spend more $$ on new pairs of speakers.

Here is what I have:
Pioneer HDTV
Sony DVD Player with HDMI
Sony DA30ES Receiver
Bose Acoustimass 10 system (compatible with a/v receivers rated from 10 to 200 watts per front channel and 10 to 100 watts per rear channel; rated from 4 to 8 ohms). It has 5 little modules cubes speakers.
Shure SM 58 Mic

My question is: If I just get a Karaoke Mixer with Amps. Will that be sufficient to meet my need here? I am hoping I will not have to spend more than $200 for the Karaoke mixer. Any suggestion on Karaoke mixer brand/type I should get and where to get it?

Thanks again!!!
Author:  Flipper [ Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
You could probably run a mixer with effects but purchasing a separate amp without purchasing speakers to match will cause you major problems. Your home theater speakers will not handle increased amp load and are really not designed to handle vocals. Music is fine, but vocals can blow your home theater speakers in a heartbeat. If you do use a mixer be sure to keep your mic channel gain turned down to prevent damage.

Unfortunately there is about a $350-$500 jump in price if you want a powered mixer and speakers for lower end performance...which would work fine for home use. There are several lower end systems that pack a punch. Yamaha and Behringer make some good ones. I prefer Yamaha. Go to your local guitar center or their online store and check them out. Good Stuff for the non-professional.
Author:  UnHinged [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
Although I’m (somewhat) familiar with the principles of pro-sound, I never thought about using a home-stereo system for karaoke.  

Is there an acceptable way to run karaoke from a home-type system?  

What if the home stereo receiver/amp had input jacks that allowed one to plug the karaoke system into it, so the original amp powered the speakers?  I’m thinking karaoke machines still have mic jacks with volume knobs, and some vocal reverb, so do they really need a separate mixer?  

But then as we know, being that the microphone is live, and the volume of the singer can’t be ultimately controlled, it could go up in an instant to a level that would blow the typical home speaker anyways?

But then… would a compressor between the karaoke machine and the reciever, set up with “brick wall” type limiting work?  I know it would take some knowledge of how to use a compressor, and of course a compressor.  

I’m also thinking that this MAY be theoretically okay, but one-single mistake and the speaker is toast, so this might not be the way to go, eh?  

So, is there a way a person could safely use a karaoke system with just a home stereo?
Author:  philli1025 [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
You can maybe use it safely if you NEVER turn it up.... I have never personally heard any live vocals coming through a k-mixer other than my own Onkyo system.. and it sounds odd and not right in most respects.  (yes you can hear yourself and the music.. but they sound very seperate and muddle)  the only "advantage" by using a home theatre is your music will most likely sound better since you seem to have a high level digital input for everything...
Author:  TopherM [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
SYW9:

As everyone else has said, home theater speakers are not designed to handle live vocals. The basic reason for this is that they are disigned with a set range of dynamic power handling that corresponds to the high-fidelity standards that all "program" material is engineered to. This means that when engineers are creating produced "program" material, such as TV audio, CDs, DVDs, etc., they engineer this material to fit wholly into a particular range of power requirements and normalize the dynamics so that there are no power spikes outside of this range.

With live music and vocals, however, there are significant ranges of power peaks and valleys that the speaker must handle. For example, if you drop the mic, that POP noise creates a significant power spike. Same thing if a singer gets overexcited and yells into the mic, or if the drummer beats the everliving crap out of a high-hat. These are energetic sounds that require more energy from the amp to reproduce through a speaker, hense the power spike.

SO, a live concert ON TV is obviously not as dynamic as the raw sound from actually being at a live show as far as varying volumes and energies because that raw sound from the concert is running through a series of filters before it is fed to the TV audience. They are filtering out all of the power spikes and pops and normalizing the track, which is what gives it that "produced" sound.

Anyway, because they normalize and produce this material, speaker manufacturers found that they could engineer speakers that are specialized to reproduce sounds within the specifications that is used to create this program material. Thus, High-Fidelity sound was coined. They just basically make hi-fi speakers so that they are extremely efficient in handling JUST the set parameters of this standardized format.

SOOOO, what that then tells you, is that anything WITHIN hi-fi parameters is going to sound much much better on your home theater equipment than on a PA system.

BUT, PA equipment is designed to handle almost the COMPLETE spectrum of audible sound. They don't specialize in one set of parameters, they are designed to reproduce anything. Due to this, they are not going to sound as good as a hi-fi system within the hi-fi spectrum BUT they are going to easily handle the dynamics of almost all sound, while the hi-fi system will very much STRUGGLE if not completely fry when attempting to handle anything outside of what it was designed for.

So, if you do drop a mic or scream into the mic and it is hooked up to a hi-fi system (like your home theater), then that produces a power spike OUTSIDE of hi-fi parameters, and components of your system are gonig to be stressed beyond their parameters and could possibly fry. HOWEVER, most such power spikes are well within the functional design of a decent PA speaker, so it reproduces this sound without stressing its components.

This is why when a PA speaker is rated at 250 watts RMS, 500 watts PROGRAM and 1000 watts MAX, you power it at 500 watts, as you want to most efficiently power it but still leave room for power spikes. IN this case, while you are running the speaker at 500 watts, which is what it would expect the average output to be for PROGRAM material without any spikes, you may drop the mic and send a 890 watt power spike through the signal chain, but since your speaker is designed to handle UP TO 1000 watts, nothing will be stressed as that spike is within the speaker's parameters. This window between the RMS and the MAX is very very small on hi-fi speakers, as again, they are tweaked to specialize in a very particular range, and do it extremely efficiently.

Well, that is probably overkill, but that is as detailed as possible about why you don't sing karaoke through your home theater!!
Author:  mckyj57 [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
UnHinged @ Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:48 am wrote:
Although I’m (somewhat) familiar with the principles of pro-sound, I never thought about using a home-stereo system for karaoke.  

Is there an acceptable way to run karaoke from a home-type system?  


Sure. All it requires is some speakers that can handle the vocals. I bought a pair of MTX speakers (12" 2-way DJ) for less than $200 and ran with that and a "karaoke mixer" for a year. My Pioneer 110W/ch amp easily drove those, and it sounded very good.

My wife and I still practice on that same system, and not even with the MTX speakers, with Bose 301s.

Quote:
What if the home stereo receiver/amp had input jacks that allowed one to plug the karaoke system into it, so the original amp powered the speakers?  I’m thinking karaoke machines still have mic jacks with volume knobs, and some vocal reverb, so do they really need a separate mixer?  

But then as we know, being that the microphone is live, and the volume of the singer can’t be ultimately controlled, it could go up in an instant to a level that would blow the typical home speaker anyways?

But then… would a compressor between the karaoke machine and the reciever, set up with “brick wall” type limiting work?  I know it would take some knowledge of how to use a compressor, and of course a compressor.  

I’m also thinking that this MAY be theoretically okay, but one-single mistake and the speaker is toast, so this might not be the way to go, eh?  

So, is there a way a person could safely use a karaoke system with just a home stereo?


I don't see why not, assuming the output of the karaoke machine is post-mix and post-effects.

The way I see it is there are 3 ways to get started for under 500 bucks:

      1. Use your existing home stereo amp and a pair of $99 MTX speakers along with your existing karaoke machine. Cheap.

      2. Buy a small PA system package like the Phonic Power Pod or Kustom for under $500. Decent sound, but will never work for large venues.

      3. Buy a $300 powered mixer like the Behringer PMP2000 and some cheap MTX speakers. This is starting to be pro.

I like #3, because you have the ability to upgrade the system dramatically by adding new speakers and an amp to give you monitor and pro power, and it gives you enough channels and options to grow. It has better effects and eq than either of the others. (You do have to buy speaker wires for both 1 and 3.)

#2 might be attractive if you like the idea of a portable that you can toss in a car trunk and take a karaoke party anywhere. I may end up buying one of those little puppies just for that reason someday. It's main disadvantage is poor upgradability.

#1 is only attractive for cheap. It would have awful eq and effects. The only advantage is that you can buy the powered mixer and move to #3 pretty easily, or you can buy a small mixer like the Behringer 1202FX to upgrade mic EQ and effects.

All of these easily sound good enough to fill a home with karaoke. My living room is 28x20 with 12 foot ceilings, and option #1 blasted us out of there with a room full of people. (I did buy speaker stands to get the speakers up, and I did have 3-band eq on my mixer.) It was good enough to make the thing sound killer, people were wowed by it and asked if I was a pro.
Author:  philli1025 [ Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
mckyj , good points and good options.

when i was buying my Phonics powerpod 620 i was debatign between 1 and 2... but i figured if the speakers were 99 bucks each for the MTX... that'll run me 200, and if I wanted a seperate amp, that's another 100.. so I was like hey the powerpod is only 300 bucks with free shipping so i might as well get something completely "live"  

Although now it's like option 3 sounds pretty attractive ;)  heck might as well buy mixer, amp, everything seperately for the future so nothing goes to waste :)
Author:  syw9 [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
Thanks all for replying. I know I must buy a new set of of loud speakers and not to use my current HTS when using it for vocal.

1. Any other suggestion than MTX speakers. I went to CC other day and those speakers are so heavy/huge. I like the price, but 12' just won't fit anywhere in my living room. Can bookshelf speakers works here? What about Bose 301s? It has 150 watts ouput.

2. I still need a Karoke mixer. I don't want to spend more than $200 on it. I want an echo effect. Suggestion?
Author:  mckyj57 [ Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
syw9 @ Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:22 pm wrote:
Thanks all for replying. I know I must buy a new set of of loud speakers and not to use my current HTS when using it for vocal.

1. Any other suggestion than MTX speakers. I went to CC other day and those speakers are so heavy/huge. I like the price, but 12' just won't fit anywhere in my living room. Can bookshelf speakers works here? What about Bose 301s? It has 150 watts ouput.


I have heard the Yamaha A10 10" speaker and it isn't too bad -- about $300 for a pair.

If you want to try real, real, cheap look at the the Kustom 10" speakers:

 http://tinyurl.com/2dnwbr

The sound might not be great. I have the monitor speaker, and I think it is not too bad. Someone else may be able to point you to other smaller speakers.

I use Bose 301s for practice myself -- they aren't too bad. But at lower volume levels they don't have any presence. I have a big voice, so we actually practice with my wife singing through the mic and me singing without it....

Bottom line, if you want to have a party you need a real PA speaker. The Kustom might do it for you, or you could do what I do -- use the Bose for practice and just move the big speakers in for a party.


Quote:
2. I still need a Karoke mixer. I don't want to spend more than $200 on it. I want an echo effect. Suggestion?


The Behringer 1202FX sells for $110 with 100 preset effects and four mic preamps. Some will point out it doesn't have eq for the CD/Tape in, but you can get:

 http://tinyurl.com/yuudt5

and plug it into one of the stereo channels.
Author:  philli1025 [ Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Upgrade or Not to Upgrade?
syw9 @ Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:22 pm wrote:
Thanks all for replying. I know I must buy a new set of of loud speakers and not to use my current HTS when using it for vocal.

1. Any other suggestion than MTX speakers. I went to CC other day and those speakers are so heavy/huge. I like the price, but 12' just won't fit anywhere in my living room. Can bookshelf speakers works here? What about Bose 301s? It has 150 watts ouput.

2. I still need a Karoke mixer. I don't want to spend more than $200 on it. I want an echo effect. Suggestion?


I would suggest you go on musicianfriends.. guitarcenter websites to browse around.  THere are really not that many choices of "live" speakers for you to choose from in your range...  there are a couple of Squire 10s and 12s... and yes the MTX are pretty big... but I think 12s should be small then those.. most of the speakers come with dimension specs... so you can easily see how big they are.  I use a pair of 10" phonics now.. they're a little bigger than my cabinet speakers.. but nothing gigantic.  

As suggested before (maybe not on this forum) if you are willing to dish out 100 bucks for one spaeker.. and 200 bucks for a k-mixer.. might as well buy a 400ish PA system (if it's for home use) it should be fine.  I know I have a blast with my phonics powerpod 620.
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