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Bin Files?
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Author:  billy d [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Bin Files?
Do some research before you answer this question..... LOL ....I have many of my cdgs stored on a 500 gb Ext -hard drive. They are stored as bin files, thus their original binary code is intact. Basically I have made exact copies of my cdgs, and put them on one large capacity disk. I play them with a lap top, and MTU software, and they play awesome, though I can only get almost 15,000 songs on one drive(will get a 1000 gb drive soon, 25 to 30k songs)......Question???? is this a format shift?...........I'm not talking media shift, there is a difference.....as for media shift, the hard drive and cd are similar media......ok, your opinions are welcome too, but lets keep an open mind to everyone's ideas, and keep out that narrow mindedness, that even I am guilty of....lol........thanks
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
It's still a copy so yes technically a copyright violation.
Author:  billy d [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
I know... :) .....but do you think it would be considered a format shift?.....that's my question........thanks
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
Well it's being shifted/copied from disc to hard drive.  Some will dispute that though with the 'technicalities' of digital media.  To me, once you are transferring to play from something other than the original media, then it has been format shifted.
Author:  TopherM [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
One of the big arguements is that what is to stop you from now running two simultaneous karaoke shows, one with your original discs and one with your copied digital karaoke tracks?

You are now making twice as much off of the one set of discs, so they effectively cost you half as much as someone who is legit with just originals. If you are caught out at your digital show, you just say, "Oh gee, sir. I copy my originals onto hard drive to maintain the integrity of the original discs. I have them all at home and you are welcome to see them. Come by tomorrow morning." Of course, by tomorrow morning you will be able to produce said originals.

So now they can't touch you for the multirigging because they didn't word the law correctly to include format shifting.

So then, you go out and make 20 more copies of your hard drive and have 20 shows running simultaneously thoughout town. If any of your employees are ever caught, you just instruct them to inform the authorities that be that they have the originals at home and they can come by to see them in the morning. You are now paying 1/20th for your music as the legit KJ down the street and you put him out of business because he can't compete with your show that charges 10% less and has more songs (which you can do, since you are paying a fraction of what he is in music.)

Unless the law includes outlawing ALL copies for commercial use, it creates too many loopholes. Just one of the many arguements.
Author:  billy d [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
Yes, I guess medium and format are synonymous......with the price of large external hard drives comming down, I really like the quality of the karaoke from the bin files. Also like the custom karaoke cds(for my own personal singing "only") that I can make from them.....yes I know, deemed illegal, but I think we all fall short in glory when it comes to the great karaoke gods that make the rules....thanks again my friend..........BD( not Big Dog, I'm not even close... :)  )
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
TopherM @ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:13 am wrote:
You are now making twice as much off of the one set of discs, so they effectively cost you half as much as someone who is legit with just originals. If you are caught out at your digital show, you just say, "Oh gee, sir. I copy my originals onto hard drive to maintain the integrity of the original discs. I have them all at home and you are welcome to see them. Come by tomorrow morning." Of course, by tomorrow morning you will be able to produce said originals..


Which is exactly the reason I plan on keeping the original discs on the premises with the computer when I go that route.
Author:  exweedfarmer [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
To answer the original question.  Yes, it is a format shift.  The information on a CD is not contiguous as it will be on your hard drive and there are three levels of additional error corrrection most of which would not be translated to the bin file.
Author:  billy d [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
TopherM @ Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:13 am wrote:
One of the big arguements is that what is to stop you from now running two simultaneous karaoke shows, one with your original discs and one with your copied digital karaoke tracks?

You are now making twice as much off of the one set of discs, so they effectively cost you half as much as someone who is legit with just originals. If you are caught out at your digital show, you just say, "Oh gee, sir. I copy my originals onto hard drive to maintain the integrity of the original discs. I have them all at home and you are welcome to see them. Come by tomorrow morning." Of course, by tomorrow morning you will be able to produce said originals.

So now they can't touch you for the multirigging because they didn't word the law correctly to include format shifting.

So then, you go out and make 20 more copies of your hard drive and have 20 shows running simultaneously thoughout town. If any of your employees are ever caught, you just instruct them to inform the authorities that be that they have the originals at home and they can come by to see them in the morning. You are now paying 1/20th for your music as the legit KJ down the street and you put him out of business because he can't compete with your show that charges 10% less and has more songs (which you can do, since you are paying a fraction of what he is in music.)

Unless the law includes outlawing ALL copies for commercial use, it creates too many loopholes. Just one of the many arguements.


Kjs have been doing that for years using cd copies. With many cdgs being out of print, any outfit with multiple kjs would more than likely be doing this, and I agree, this is wrong......my view, legal or not, 1 for 1, just don't want to wear out my originals....... :)
Author:  jerry12x [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
As has been pointed out to me recently, SC press their own disks.
They are inferior quality and susceptible to label scratch damage.
Since this is the case, I can only see format shifting a sensible alternative.
I recommend Lon’s, keep it on the premises.
25 - 30k songs. In the YUK you would have to be Very rich.
Sarah.
Author:  timberlea [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
Quote:
As has been pointed out to me recently, SC press their own disks.
They are inferior quality and susceptible to label scratch damage.


Really?  We have discs of all manufacturers collected over 15 years about 3-400 SC and in all that time we had to replace 2 discs from KJTools (15 years old) for a scratch on one song on each disc.  BTW we play 6 nights a week and over the years never less than five and as much as nine.

So either you are storing your discs wrong, handle them roughly and incorrectly, or you are lying.
Author:  knightshow [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
I think he meant that the copies are inferior quality, Tim
Author:  jerry12x [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
I dont own any SC.
All information was gleemed from this forum.
Am I not to believe it ???
Sarah.
Author:  jacanah2u [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
I'm sure I'll get blasted for being a newbie to the forum, but I'm not a newbie to doing karoake shows, been doing it for 10 years. I've also played music as a musician onstage in nightclubs, worked many a dj booth in clubs and worked radio for awhile. Over the last twenty years of doing this, I've yet to see BMI or ASCAP walk into the club and demand to see anyones disc collection. They just don't do it. If your venue has paid their performance dues your chances of being questioned about your hard drive are just about as good as hitting the 370 million dollar mega millions jackpot that was just won by two people. How many karaoke shows do you think were going on during the drawing Tuesday night?

Do your show, impress the club owner, make sure the guests enjoy themselves and worry about the small stuff later. If you own the original, you are legal.

Anyone using a laptop is file shifting. It has to be done to make a CDG play from a computer. We all had to have software to make one play from a laptop or desktop. That software is fileshifting.

I just don't see why eveyone makes such a big deal out of it.

Okay, regulars blast away............
Author:  exweedfarmer [ Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
No blasting.  Of course you wouldn't see ASCAP or BMI bust anyone over a burned disk.  It's not their job.  They only deal with the small rights such as public performance.  Burned disks would be copyright infringement, nothing to do with them.
Author:  dougpke [ Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
Ok, Let me play the devil's advocate. Let's say (this is all hypothetical) That you have a server sitting in your office at home connected to to computers at five Clubs/Bars. The karaoke host at a location punches in a song number, and that particular song is served up, and for the duration of that song, it is locked out from use at the other four Clubs/Bars. Let's assume this is some sort of jukebox system on the server, so it is actually being played off the disk. Multirigging..... Yes/No??? :O
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
dougpke @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:17 am wrote:
Ok, Let me play the devil's advocate. Let's say (this is all hypothetical) That you have a server sitting in your office at home connected to to computers at five Clubs/Bars. The karaoke host at a location punches in a song number, and that particular song is served up, and for the duration of that song, it is locked out from use at the other four Clubs/Bars. Let's assume this is some sort of jukebox system on the server, so it is actually being played off the disk. Multirigging..... Yes/No??? :O


I would consider it multirigging since all 5 clubs have access to the same songs even though there is only 1 set of music.  Even though they may be only accessed one at a time isn't the issue, the fact remains that only 1 set of discs were (presumably) bought which would take care of 1 system only - what happens when the fluke of  more than 1 club needing that song at the same time, I hear it on the radio with different stations the same songs being played at the same time, so conceivably it could happen at karaoke in different clubs.
Author:  billy d [ Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
What about the Library principle?
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
Billy D @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:14 am wrote:
What about the Library principle?


Not sure what you mean here.  If a library loans out a disc, it's not yours, if you make a copy, it's illegal - especially once you bring the disc back.
Author:  billy d [ Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bin Files?
I meant that they purchase one copy to loan out to many people, only one person at a time.....this way they get around many licensing fees....they are suppose to have no more rights than the average Joe...lol......I know I'm stretching this principle a bit..... :) ....just trying to keep things going
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