Karaoke Forums

[highlight=crimson]The title of this thread has been changed so as not to step on the toes of certain people in the forum.    Do not take this last sentence as a personal attack on anyone in particular.[/highlight]

JUST as people with brilliant scientific minds laughed at theories presented by Einstein, I am being laughed at.     I am presenting my theory for EQing a system that goes against the grain of sound "experts."     I firmly believe that it is very possible to EQ a System to obtain quality sound from room to room without messing with the EQ settings after every move.

With all of the links to EQing information posted by Lonman and others, you can plainly see that there are many, many "ways" to "EQ" a room.   (It should be noted that I do not ever EQ the room.   I EQed my system once.)     None seem to be set in stone.   Some suggest pink noise, white noise, speaking into a microphone, playing music, acoustic tile to wall treatments, etc.     Which one is right?    Anybody have the correct answer?   Let's hear it.   If you use the microphone technique that's fine if you are the only one singing in the room.  What about how other singers will sound?   Not the best idea if you ask me.   Pink noise generators, they want you to do the test from every listening position in the room.   Not practical.     And then fill the room with people so what happened to the optimum pink settings now?

As to the info about how I have EQed my system.  Please do not believe me.   It's a [highlight=crimson]theory[/highlight] that works very well for me.    My system is EQed to thousands of songs from all genres.   Slow, fast, country, rock, ballads, love songs & pop.     No I don't have to play around with the sound of each individual song.    I only adjust the volume sliders and use the microphone gain knobs for certain powerful singers.   I also have the microphone channels EQed the same way.

You have every right to not believe this.      It is MY OPINION.    You also have the right to try every other not "set in stone" technique for EQing a room.   Let me know when you find one that works as completely as mine.   I play in every type of room.   From a two story open room to a small very crowded one.   The system sounds the same.    It doesn't matter if you stand in the back of the room, the front, the side or behind the speakers.


Again you have not heard my system to know for yourself, if I am right or wrong.   But you will condemn me for posting my theory as to how I do it.

You can prove it for yourself.   It's the only way you will know.    Try it sceptics, don't take my word for anything.   Try it first them criticize me.     It saves me a ton of time and work.     Also the system sounds as good at the end of the night as it did in the beginning.      Full bar or empty.

[highlight=crimson]BIGDOG THEORY:       SYSTEM EQing = SET IT AND FORGET IT.[/highlight]

The afore mentioned theory is only that and should be used by only the most professional of KJs.

Oh and it works best if you use the entire 4 speaker system.     I can not guarantee it will work with half a system (Tops alone won't cut it, for optimal hearing pleasure.....)

For complete info on the BIGDOG "Set it and forget it" EQing system, contact me via PM.   It will insure your privacy.

You EQ any audio system to compensate for any exaggerations or deficits in the frequency response of the speakers PLUS the room. The speaker components plus the cabinets will color the sound a certain way -- all speaker makes and models are different in their sound reproduction for sure.  But there's more too it. Once the sound waves enter into the air in the room, they are then modified again by the shape, size and building material in that room.  Plus, the size of the crowd will determine how much sound will be absorbed and diffused which can alter how we end up hearing the sound too.  Higher frequencies want to travel in a straight line.  Any objects in their way will effect how loudly we hear them.  Low frequencies need distance to fully develope because they have longer wavelengths.  All of the above factors need to be compensated and accounted for with equalization.

Well said!

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And AGAIN we see the little cur is trying so hard to prove himself correct.

It's a known FACT that every speaker is different... some can be very similar, but yes, you DO have to adjust the sound a bit, but you ALSO have to adjust to the ROOM... the way you have a system set will NEVER be the same from venue to venue!

SHeesh!

The original purpose of EQ was to compensate for low and high frequency roll-off in amps. Also as one gets older he loses hearing in the high ranges.. So at normal volume  with a home stereo that was another purpose..

When a sound system is setup right normally the only thing that has to EQ'd are the lows for they are the most affected by acoustics.. A heavy carpet will kill the bass or full crowds will dampen bass.  In small areas bass traps are needed in certain areas and oftentimes is is easier to tailor the room for acoustics rather than trying to do it withEQ. Speaker angle and placement is also crucial...

Anybody setting up a system shold be familiar with the power alley effect] So when a bass speaker isnt being used this effect is more prevalant..


And there are systems that dont need EQ'd

sys 1

sys 2

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I think the term is "Voicings".  All speakers have different voicings.  Depending on room condition such as upholstry, curtains (things that absorb and dampen sound), less plushness or no carpeting, fewer people (that also absorb sound) room layout (often you dampen behind corner speakers because of "bounce"). Height placement of speakers in room (lower more bassy, higher more treble), room size. While you can attempt to EQ a component, NOT all speakers have adjustable voicings. In home audio speaker voicings must be matched.  You can't balance speakers with different voicings by EQ'ing speakers.  For optimal setup the room AND speakers must be taken into consideration. Ideally MOST speakers should be around the height of the listeners ears, except for the subwoofer which is omnidirectional. You OFTEN must tweak the room too.  I have to carpet behind my JBL main corner speakers to absorb bounce. Speakers voicings should be matched, Balancing this "by ear" is almost impossible. THis is NEVER an either/or situation.

Different types of speaker voicings also are better suited for different types of music delivered. Don,  here's an example.  You can tweak Altec or JBL speakers til you're blue in the face HOWEVER you DO NOT use jbl speakers with a Marshall head or cabs. You don't want a very clean speaker for the features of such an amp. Additionally, Fender is better suited for Lansing speakers. There are some speakers that you just can't EQ to sound as good as others given various settings. Certain room geometry's also make it VERY tough to get speakers to sound good.

You want I should bring in an audiophile ?  LMAO

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HEY MODS....

Hows about deleting this entire thread?

In fact, placement of PA speakers in a small longer room becomes VERY difficult. I had to read how to position speakers in a 16X12 living room.  One option was longer wall 1/3 and 2/3 down wall length. The MOST IMPORTANT element in the optimal setup is MATCHING your speakers to their environment.  ALL things must be taken into consideration. If you CAN tweak speakers to your room by just a simple EQ'ing adjustment fine.  Not all speakers can be tweaked to work in all settings however.  SO, assuming this is a rhetorical question Big Dog,  Meaning matching speakers to a room IS (in a sense) EQ'ing them to the room, this is correct. You must equalize speakers in a sense to match the room. HOWEVER you also OFTEN have to compromise by making room adjustments too ! It's all in a sense an EQ'ing process I suppose.  But not using JUST a graphic Equalizer.

Isn't attempting to balance your speakers to your environent also a synonym for Equalizing them ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I agree with Odie

Well said!

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

First of all, doesn't anyone know what yes and no is?   Some of you got way ahead of my explanation.

Second of all, If you read Karyoker's item about the subs and the power alley.   Everyone that uses subs any place but in the middle of the stage is wrong.  Period.  And that pretty much kills all of the forum experts.

Third, Steven is pretty close to what I'm talking about.

Fourth, There are still people that refuse to even use subs.  LMAO

Fifth, If we took a trailer load of every type of speaker from every speaker company, we could EQ the room just by swapping speakers to match the room's EQ needs..   Without having an EQ unit.

Sixth, "well said" doesn't mean correct.   According to the "power alley" theory.

Seventh, that makes even the speaker companies wrong because they always show split stage speaker setups, with the subs way out on the sides of the stage.   I.E. Every concert, DJ, KJ, Band anyone has ever attended or seen on TV.   All incorrect setups.

It would take a spectacular (super-normal) ear to mix and match voicings of speakers in hopes of compensating for room location conditions within a given room though. I suppose an extremely gifted intricate "ear" would be able to match flatter speakers with brighter speakers given certain room conditions. What most do is compensate.

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All it would take would be to listen and see if the room needed more bass or more highs.   Then you use the speakers that give you what you're looking for.   How hard would that be if you knew which speakers sounded bassier than the others?    No more compensation the pushing up the slider on the EQ frequency that you wanted.    I need more bass so, I'll use this speaker becasuse it gives a lot of bass.   Or I'll use this one because the highs are really there.

Reason *I* think it's very hard is because each make of speaker has it's own coloration, and little subtleties that are very hard for most to hear.  Matching speaker voicings is what's very difficult. Sure a person with a spectacular ear might be able to match JBL fronts with Fisher rears, assuming the JBL's are tuneable.  This stuff can drive a person crazy however !  But since so much of this is subjective I suppose a sensitive ear can do what you mention. When you are performing in a lounge, naturally you do need to adjust YOUR equipment to suit the room, you can't go stripping lounge curtains down because they are muffling sound, ripping up carpet, I won't disagree with that.  Home audio I suppose is a more intricate area where things become more delicate in terms of midrange rising, and tweaking more areas...

Since you are playing music thru those cabs, in order for them to best present the music, you need to tweak them for MANY frequencies, and have those balanced.  Not just bass and treble.

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Surely you could tell if the highs or the bass was different on some speakers.

Here's the problem I have BD.   It's ALOT more than just the bass.  It's overall balance. I was going over this with Don about 1//2 year ago.  I have a Peavey Black Widow bass cab. I Took the BW out've the cab and put a JBL K-series speaker in assuming it was a better speaker.  As Don correctly pointed out to me, JBL K speakers offer more in a midrange area that a bass player doesn't really want, cabs are ported differently, and tuned to accomodate certain speakers. Don suggested replacing the BW in the BW cab.. It's tough to hear however. It becomes noisier in a certain range (JBL-K).  An area often bassists wish to omit.  Up close to the cab, this is VERY tough to hear !  When combining several cabs for a stack, it get's tougher.  It's the overall balance which becomes hardest to tune and match IMO, You are dealing with numerous frequencies, colorations, flat and bright areas, drop-off, this get's into audio physics I think.. I'm personally not sensitive enough to notice ALL I'd need to hear..

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Then how would you be able to hear if you needed to adjust the EQ to give it more bass or highs?    And when would you know it's enough?

Exactly the problem.  When you listen to a MATCHED pair of speakers.  You analyze THEM, know what they are capable of.. and you have some established equilibrium to work with, both speakers have a commonality.  You know how they sound together in desireable conditions, volumes, and have a basic understanding of what you need to tweak give or take larger rooms, different heights, when they change, they change similarly.  You have the specs of those cabs to work with.  You also are confident that they will complement one-another at different volumes too.  Remember, with mix and match speakers, what sounds good to you at 9 PM when the bar is relatively empty, MIGHT sound like mud on a higher volume around midnight for a different type music, the flatter speaker might not work at all at that point.  Speakers must be matched in ALL senses of the word..  When you try to improvise or make-shift combo's.... It's VERY tough to cover all bases.  I've tried adding extension cabs to fender twins, Marshall 1/2 stacks (that weren't Celestians), it kills the WHOLE sound, even the one good sounding cab if not done correctly.  While I might not notice it on a lower volume for ballad, I likely will for louder blues style.. Might hear alot of clicking, hiss, etc. Spurious noises.

As Don mentioned you tweak your system to match the room.  I'm interjecting that once you mix and match speakers with different voicings you open up Pandora's box. It's VERY tough to do. They seldom complement one-another for your duration.



Problem with Timbre matching is that different speakers have different sensitivities, some speakers are more aggressive sounding, this is really an art and science, not an easy thing to do. People buy matching pairs of speakers for this reason. Take two vocalists.  You can't know they have complementary voices just by hearing them sing a few bass notes together.  When they get up into the baritone or tenor range, there might be very noticeable differences in their vocal timbre.  Same with singing different styles and at different volumes.  SPeakers are similar.

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In regards to the original post: No (and yes, sort of).

They provide specifications on speakers so you can identify the characteristics of the speakers.

You have to EQ for the speakers, the room acoustics, AND for the contents of the room.

Since I do mostly mobile gigs the room acoustics vary wildly and I need to adjust for the room.

Throughout the night I have to re-adjust for the changes in the room.  What do I mean?  That school gymnasium sounds completely different when I sound check and when it's filled with 800 people.

EQ is a tool.  Proper use of the tool is necessary to get the best sound possible out of the equipment you have and the room (or lack thereof) that you put it in.

And if you say you don't have to EQ for the room then consider the sound in a gym vs. the sound in an open air environment (outdoor).  Completely different sound - completely different EQ - even if you use the exact same equipment for both.

Amen!!!! Finally someone here knows what they are talking about!!!  :worship:

Would someone either put the dog down or send him to sound school.  Thank you.

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