KARAOKE SCENE MAGAZINE ONLINE! - Mixing in monitors w/ Main (ATTN:KEITH) Public Forums Karaoke Discussions Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums Home | Contact Us | Site Map  

Karaoke Forums

Karaoke Scene Karaoke Forums

Karaoke Scene

   
  * Login
  * Register

  * FAQ
  * Search

Custom Search

Social Networks


wordpress-hosting

Offsite Links


It is currently Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:02 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:15 am 
Offline
Super Plus Poster
Super Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 1921
Images: 1
Location: N. Central Iowa
Been Liked: 53 times
[quote="Keith02 @ Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:40 pmIf you happen to be running your mains in stereo off an unbridged amp, you can actually connect a third speaker across the red binding posts and use it as a floor monitor or far field cabinet.

Yep, I swear you can safely do that.......The amp will be operating in stereo like before  with an 8 ohm speaker on each channel and an 8 ohm speaker for a monitor, but the amp power-wise will think it is operating in bridged mode into a 4 ohm load, and the monitor will get a mono signal which is what you want anyway.[/quote]

Ok, sonds like a GREAT IDEA, and I am in, but it still is a bit confusing.

PIC or a diagram?????


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:27 am 
Offline
Super Extreme Poster
Super Extreme Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm
Posts: 22978
Songs: 35
Images: 3
Location: Tacoma, WA
Been Liked: 2126 times
It almost sounds like he is describing what a lot of car amps are capable of.

Running both channels stereo for your mains & then bridging the 2 positives for 1 more speaker such as a sub/with passive low pass filter.  
I'm not quite sure if this would work on most PA amps.  He did state a Peavey rep stated that.  Most amps I have work either in bridge mode or stereo mode, not both.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
Image


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:32 am 
Offline
Super Plus Poster
Super Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 1921
Images: 1
Location: N. Central Iowa
Been Liked: 53 times
[quote="Lonman @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:27 pm"]It almost sounds like he is describing what a lot of car amps are capable of.

Running both channels stereo for your mains & then bridging the 2 positives for 1 more speaker such as a sub/with passive low pass filter. [quote]

Baicaly that would give you stereo sound on your mids and highs, where it matters, and on the low sub freq, it would be a combonation of the 2 channels, thefore MONO on the sub??????????


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:00 pm 
Offline
Super Extreme Poster
Super Extreme Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm
Posts: 22978
Songs: 35
Images: 3
Location: Tacoma, WA
Been Liked: 2126 times
twansenne @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:32 am wrote:
Baicaly that would give you stereo sound on your mids and highs, where it matters, and on the low sub freq, it would be a combonation of the 2 channels, thefore MONO on the sub??????????


That's how it works with alot of car amps, yes.  Again, not sure if it could be put into use with most PA amps.  Would like to know more on where Keith got that info myself.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
Image


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:36 pm 
Offline
Super Plus Poster
Super Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 1921
Images: 1
Location: N. Central Iowa
Been Liked: 53 times
SOunds like that is what he is getting at.  If you ran a stero system, and hooke in a monitor, to only the left or right channel, then the monitor would only have the music from that channel.  Thus by "bridging" the 2 stero chennels, it would give you mono in the monitor, and still maintain your stero for the mains.  At least that is what I am thinking.

But I guess, since I run in MONO (2 amps not bridged), since a lot of places I play have funky speaker placements, just putting the monitor on either the left or right channel would not make a difference since the sound is still mono.


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:09 pm 
Offline
Super Duper Poster
Super Duper Poster

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm
Posts: 2327
Been Liked: 0 time
ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!...I can't find the link I'm looking for!...I thought i had the right one.....I'll keep looking


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:20 pm 
Offline
Super Duper Poster
Super Duper Poster

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm
Posts: 2327
Been Liked: 0 time
twansenne @ Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:36 pm wrote:
But I guess, since I run in MONO (2 amps not bridged), since a lot of places I play have funky speaker placements, just putting the monitor on either the left or right channel would not make a difference since the sound is still mono.
Ain't no such thing as unbridged mono on a two channel amp.....unbridged is left/right, bridged is mono....


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:15 am 
Offline
Super Poster
Super Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:26 pm
Posts: 1252
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Been Liked: 3 times
For the amp to function properly you would have to run the amp in bridged mono mode at that point you would only be sending a positinve singal to the one main speaker and a negative to the other.

The comparison is to a 4 channel amp running one stereo set and the second 2 channels in mono bridged there are Crown amps manufactured that will do this properly.

I wouldn't want to see allof the bad things that would happen by this suggestive setup.


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:36 am 
Offline
Super Duper Poster
Super Duper Poster

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm
Posts: 2327
Been Liked: 0 time
Still looking :(


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:47 am 
Offline
Extreme Plus Poster
Extreme Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm
Posts: 6784
Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA
Been Liked: 5 times
Once again they have taken a simple concept and over complicated it'

Lets say you have a 10 volt power supply Disregarding efficiency and other factors it can handle a 5 volt postive and 5 volt negative swing in voltage... (10 volt peak to peak)  Now if you take one channel and invert the phase 180 degrees so they are working in a push pull fashion you get a 20 volt peak to peak swing..  Then you invert the phase back 180 degrees to keep the speakers in phase.  This is a bridged amp..

What they are doing with the car amps is hooking the left right  on both sides of the speaker for a pushpull arrangement using both channels to drive one speaker The result is mono and each amp sees 4 ohms versus 8... Note the signals are 180 out of phase...

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:48 pm 
Offline
Super Plus Poster
Super Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:03 pm
Posts: 1921
Images: 1
Location: N. Central Iowa
Been Liked: 53 times
OK, I guess I should restate....me runing a MONO sound, into 2 amps that are not bridge.

I don't want my music in stero, becasue of  some funky speaker placements a some place I play.  If it were in stero, and something like Led Zeppelin was playing where the music pans back and forth, it would not be a good effect since the speaker can't be set up to provide that effect.  Therefore my sound is MONO, but I am running 2 amps, one fore each speaker, or set of speakers.

Hope ya understand.


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:16 pm 
Offline
Super Extreme Poster
Super Extreme Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm
Posts: 22978
Songs: 35
Images: 3
Location: Tacoma, WA
Been Liked: 2126 times
karyoker @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:47 am wrote:
What they are doing with the car amps is hooking the left right  on both sides of the speaker for a pushpull arrangement using both channels to drive one speaker The result is mono and each amp sees 4 ohms versus 8... Note the signals are 180 out of phase...


Not sure.  I had an old Punch amp.  It was stable down to nearly 1 ohm.  It was able to run a set of stereo mains AND a bridged sub with filter/choke - tapped off the 2 positives of each speaker channel.  The only thing that was mono was the sub, the 2 mains were a well defined left & right all running on the same amp.  Really don't know what it did to the ohms & watts each speaker actually recieved.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
Image


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:44 pm 
Offline
Extreme Plus Poster
Extreme Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm
Posts: 6784
Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA
Been Liked: 5 times
Quote:
ot sure.  I had an old Punch amp.  It was stable down to nearly 1 ohm.  It was able to run a set of stereo mains AND a bridged sub with filter/choke - tapped off the 2 positives of each speaker channel.  The only thing that was mono was the sub, the 2 mains were a well defined left & right all running on the same amp.  Really don't know what it did to the ohms & watts each speaker actually recieved.


 I aint sure either but dont know what you mean by bridged sub Lon... Did the filter assembly have a transformer that inverted the polarity? To me hooking both positives to opposite sides of a speaker would cancel out but like the pic above if one was inverted it would work..... You got me curious now...

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:56 pm 
Offline
Extreme Poster
Extreme Poster
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm
Posts: 4080
Location: Serian
Been Liked: 0 time
Keith,

Is this what you are looking for for?

Quote:
I can show you how to get +6 dB more performance out of this system with no more financial investment, while having the system configured to prevent anyone from changing the calibration of the Near and Far Field gain structure. The secret to this application is to operate the CS-800X in bridge mode. Connect the Far Field HDH-244T across the two red binding posts of each channel, i.e., in normal bridge mode operation. Then you would connect one of the Near Field HDH-244T's, across the A channels' red and black binding posts. Next, the second Near Field HDH-244T would be connected across the B channels' red and black binding post; however, (note) the second Near Field HDH-244T, that is connected to the B channel output, would have the loudspeaker leads reversed. This is very important, since the B channel is out of phase with the A channel, you don't want the second Near Field speaker to be out of phase, so reversing the loudspeaker leads will maintain the proper polarity. In this application I would recommend reversing the loudspeaker leads at the speaker itself.


Quote:
This would prevent someone from noticing the different color wires on the A & B channels' red and black banana posts, thinking they are "correcting" someone else's error by changing them around. In this application with a CS-800X, the Far Field HDH-244T would automatically have +6 dB more gain than the Near Field HDH-244T loudspeakers. When the Far Field loudspeaker receives 800 Watts from the power amplifier, each of the Near Field speakers would receive 200 Watts. I have shown you a way in this application to obtain +6 dB more performance in both the Near and Far Field, with no more investment in dollars. Typically, you would have had to quadruple the number of loudspeakers to obtain +6 dB more system performance.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:32 pm 
Offline
Super Extreme Poster
Super Extreme Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm
Posts: 22978
Songs: 35
Images: 3
Location: Tacoma, WA
Been Liked: 2126 times
karyoker @ Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:44 pm wrote:
 I aint sure either but dont know what you mean by bridged sub Lon... Did the filter assembly have a transformer that inverted the polarity? To me hooking both positives to opposite sides of a speaker would cancel out but like the pic above if one was inverted it would work..... You got me curious now...


The filter was just a large wire coil wrapped around a hollow iron rod.  6.6mh.  The place that made it was Chokes Unlimited - basically a low pass filter was all it was.  They specialize in speaker crossover components.

This is exactly how the stereo store hooked it up according to the amps diagram hook up.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
Image


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:05 pm 
Offline
Extreme Plus Poster
Extreme Plus Poster
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm
Posts: 6784
Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA
Been Liked: 5 times
LMAO

Quote:
The filter was just a large wire coil wrapped around a hollow iron rod.  6.6mh.  The place that made it was Chokes Unlimited - basically a low pass filter was all it was.  They specialize in speaker crossover components.



I dont know .....Usually a choke in series like in a power supply is used to filter out 60 hertz or hum.... Ok... they were using it for a load to pass low's to the speaker....Im slow....But you still need to invert the polarity on one leg to power the speaker. I would have to see the schematic but the critical part would be polarity thru out...

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!


Top
 Profile Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:09 pm 
Offline
Super Extreme Poster
Super Extreme Poster
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm
Posts: 22978
Songs: 35
Images: 3
Location: Tacoma, WA
Been Liked: 2126 times
Alls I know is it worked & sounded pretty decent.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!
Image


Top
 Profile Personal album Singer's Showcase Profile 
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 667 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

Privacy Policy | Anti-Spam Policy | Acceptable Use Policy Copyright © Karaoke Scene Magazine
design & hosting by Cross Web Tech