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Lets say you have purchased SC Foundations, I and II and all 5 bricks.
Now let's say you took the LONG AND TEDIOUS  job of ripping this collection to a computer hardrive.  And as some know this is a REAL time consuming pain  the arse.   Is it legal or even ethical to COPY this hardrive and sell it to someone who also has the original discs of Foundation I,II plus the bricks?  
The way I see it :
You wouldn't be selling the SONGS per se  ( cause the buyer already has them ) but the service of  ripping and tagging the files.

Whats your thougts ...........

(I'm just using Foundations as an example could be any original cdg)

Myself, I would not hesitate to do that...after all, as you pointed out, you are not selling songs, but instead your time and services.

Tort law seems complicated, but actually it is very simple...to claim injury(tort), you must show/demonstrate that you were somehow injured(suffered moneytary loss)....The recording companies suffered no loss in this case-They sold both of you copies....

Easy, huh?

Go for it, dude.

Legal vs what most would do... is the issue here...


, and like most issues, the answer lies in which side of the fence the parties are viewing the issue from... If it involves illegal transferring of music whether you sell effort, and/or equipment or not is moot..Is the content legally transferred ?Yet does it really matter ?   Dunno, again subjective, as are most moral issues...Why should I worry about living life 100% legally in such a messed up already complicated world, when the most corruption and sinning takes place within our own government that creates and enforces these laws ?  again, subjective.. as are all ethical aspects..  So at what point do we vindicate our own immoral doing, and forgive ourselves, or just blatantly decide to sin...and enjoy it ?


look at it this way.... I can sell you a nice paraphenalia apparatus, and not the hashish in it... yet what am I REALLY selling you ?  despite rationalization.. DO YOU legally have a right to transfer this music to someone else for funds in exchange ? or even give it away ?   not sure how copyright law is written up.. Yet there is an answer to this that lies outside our speculation.

this has been a Kappy filosufy edition of ethical constructs 'n stuff...101


Pot is illegal, yet as long as alcohol is legal, some laws IMHO are just plain stupid, and as adults we decide often consentually how to live amongst stupid stuff... and black/white issues in the grey world


My own feeling,  don't sweat the small stuff... Do as you please, noone will care...yet is this right ? of course not,,its MY own feeling

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is the same as when i purchased a legal copy of hoster...and then paid my hired hand 200 bucks to sit at my computer and rip my legal discs into my computer...It's exactly the same thing!

No one was injured. No copyright was violated. I paid him to do the work for me.

Gee, I really wish i could smoke some of that stuff....i really do...but they tinkle test me at work...I get so sick of this black and white world sometimes.

Yeah Keith,  It really does eventually become an all or none type world.... where people babysit us.. so much can be used to justify so much...

the old adage..


Is it right that:

A man is legally old enough to die for his country,  the same country that says he's not adult enough to handle alcohol..  or are these two area's entirely unrelated ?  can be viewed EITHER way...and defended accordingly

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Keith, IS it the same ?  One aspect involves sale, or giving someone a copy of something that according to copyright law, I shouldn't be transferring to another party ? EVEN assuming they already own THEIR copy of like item ?

or isn't copyright law written that way ?   I don't know

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I got news for you dude....The present administration is working to LOWER the age for military recruits.....At the rate they are going, it will be 5 years before a soldier with no legs left can legally buy a beer in this country....no smiley face this time.

Keith, so much that to me seems rediculous.... such as prescription vs over the counter stuff..... 2 mg sudafed non-prescription, 4 mg prescription.... I can see both sides of this stuff....yet like all laws.... MOST of us don't need a government usurping this much control over us as adults..

Like I said,  I'm not viewing this in terms of a person who has legal knowledge of this..I'm looking at the example as I believe it was set out to be viewed,  philosophically purely... The law already is written up, yet how it's stated... I dunno... that would involve a phonecall


Jam, as I see it,  the example would be considered a rationalization.... bottomline, DO *you* have a right to transfer this music either free, or for monetary reimbursement ?  That's the real issue

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Incidently, I do see what Keith is saying here as well, yet I'd want to debate such an issue as follows..

"Does court interpretation and ability to prosecute or an atty's rhetoric as a means to vindicate matter in what's already defined as a legal vs illegal act?"

OR:

Does OJ SImpson's defense mean he's innocent of the act that transpired ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Common sense would lead me to agree with you... however knowing what a litigious society we live in, especially for anything the RIAA might be interested in I'd recommend that you get the opinion of a lawyer to cover your backside...

It goes back to proving injury....Look up tort law-It's basic and universal to all states.

To claim injury(tort) you must show/demonstrate that you were injured.

In the case of copyright law, you must show that the defendant cost you sales.

If someone who purchased a license to own copyrighted music hires you to duplicate that music, and if the license allows him to posess a copy, then it does not matter who actually performed the copy process for him....no one has been injured, no sales were lost, no one violated the license.

If however, the license states that absolutely no copies can be made for any purpose by anyone, then there IS a violation of the license and tort has occured and is actionable.

In the case cited here, the copyright holder allows the license holder to posess a copy of the licensed product......By whatever means possible, the license holder is then able to obtain that copy providing he honors the license agreement as pertains to showing, and distribution of licensed/copyrighted materials.

Simply stated-If you own the license to a piece of copyrighted material, then you can make or CAUSE to be made any copies allowed in the license....From there, you are responsible for the use and posession of those copies as agreed to in the license.

So if you decide that you want to purchase a CD duplicator and offer a fee based  copy service, then go for it...Just take care to read the license agreement for each piece offered for you to copy.

Never be afraid of the law....Instead try to understand it...the best lawyers are not those who manipulate law, it is those who follow it to the letter.

Keith, that does cover duplication, but how about "transfer" to different party ? You are allowed to copy and duplicate material that is permissible to copy and duplicate.. Same with how we buy stuff....There is a disclaimer

"While the sale of this material is legal, please check your state and local laws to see what they read providing the use of mopeds, air-rifles, etc"

Point being, I can buy a BB-gun, and alcohol....Expose it in many places around here, and I'm in jail no questions asked.. I own my computer, I have a printer, CD's, etc...  If I get caught using them for porn, or illegal duplication, I'm screwed.... It's illegal, or possibly fine UNTIL I'm prosecuted....


I'll shut up now

thing is today... A "rose" by any other name, and regardless of peoples sense of odor and site, would still make me a rose, once it's generally accepted I'm one...

Bottomline,  what does buying THIS particular SC volume state in their legal description about the transfer of their material to another party after sold to you ? Should it be illegal to do so...NAH...yet is it ?  I'll bet it is....

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

According to some Jam, it's legal until you're caught doing otherwise.... Our system of juris prudence.... and ethical/ moral...there are alot of principles that make sense, they are logical and quite reasonable....yet they are illegal...


Our legal system is like how math and stats can lie... The best rhetoricians win.



(DISCLAIMER:  THIS IS MY OPINION, based upon reading some copyright law, and various understanding or misunderstanding.. I am NOT in the business of CD-G exchange particulars.....I don't know.. In the P2P cases it's VERY tough if not impossible to show monetary loss, as it is in MOST civil cases, yet does that mean the acts aren't still illegal according to specific law ?)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven, you need to stop exposing yerself-that's the first thing you gotta do....

Regardless of state law anywhere, there are folks who take offence to that kinda stuff.....you should stop to consider your neighbors who may have till now been happily married 20 years or more...just imagine his sense of loss when Steven appears in his window waving with three hands.  From there on out your neighbor feels less the man....and he sues you for alienation of affection cause now his wife laffs at him compared to you.

Trust me my friend, you gotta keep that BB gun of yours holstered and fully concealed at all times....then learn the golden rule-you will only use it in the gravest extreme.

As far as illegal duplication goes, you can only be held responsibile it duplication actually occurs....simply stated-if the kid looks like you, then you need to worry.

You forget the part where it ends up happily ever after... He runs off infatuated with me, and after the wife get's done puking from the nightmares she has about having seen both of us naked.. She goes into rehab, get's electroshock treatments, and eventually remarries a real man.. and this ends up happily ever after...

Yet she always has a touch of PTSS

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think "most" would coincider nothing wrong with taking your legal purchased CDG's and ripping to your harddrive to use in a digital karaoke player as PCDJ / SAX  / HOSTER / ROX BOX / ETC  / ETC.

So what difference is there if a MP3+G FILE of a disc already exist and you want to transfer to someone who also has the legally purchased CDG themselves.

I've read many view points on this subject and some would consider any type of duplication whether it be CDG to CDG or CDG to MP3+G /WMA a violation of copyright law.
Personally --- I don't see anything wrong with my scenario as long as original CDG copies of the mp3+g files do exist.

The fact that you aren't authorized by contract to do-so.   There's a clear violation if you read most specific's...

"I agree not to...etc... In some cases it concisely spells this out, even say's duplicate, transfer, etc"  which is why as a few stated, that law exists...just needs to be referenced.


What's the difference if I buy a drug that's prescribed or not as an adult who should have the right to make decisions as to my own well-being (assuming the drug is only for my own ingestion) ?

we can split hairs about ALOT of things...In some cases it seems almost insignificant as to whether what we are doing is wrong...in other cases we don't see it, and get into trouble...yet in the bulk of the cases, we break laws, and never get caught.

So, we all sin  LOL   The diehards will say what you are doing is WRONG because...etc

however most will say, do as you please,  it's easier for both of you...
ALL depends...


JMO- (and I can't stress enough, I'm responding to the "what are your thoughts" aspect of this solely, Jam.)  This is MY opinion... I have no right talking about actual aspects of the copyright world.  As mentioned in another thread, I'm NO expert...
I'm ONLY viewing this from a somewhat philosophical perspective.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Jam, not sure, but is this considered "Format shifting" ?  When Karyoker and myself were reading about the jukebox act. It got into alot of intricate stuff about digital players vs standard LP..in public and a little change such as "Does the bar have a cover charge" made a difference. I don't know, can a KJ legally format shift ? Can *I* legally format shift and lend the copy out ?  Dunno


Jam, I just got an idea...knowing our crazy legal system, and this is likely off the wall...Let's say your initial paragraph is rephrased to this, and "MORALLY" helping a friend is always the thing to do when you can, (your ethical values are subjective)...

1)  My friend came over to borrow one of my CD-G's, not sure which one. I said, go into my library and take what you need  (to me this is moral because it's helping my friend..)

2)  My friend asked to borrow my copy apparatus on my computer, naturally I didn't scrutinize what he was doing, I trust my friends..

3) I found a few bucks on my carpet, I wonder where that came from ?


I think you are covered in this respect.

Is this legal ?  well if I stated what "I thought"  that wouldn't be very nice..  

Just thinking about this...

So much is in method... Years ago a cop I knew pulled me over and asked me a question regarding my radar detector that of course was legal, but can't be turned on.  I answered his questions this way...

"If I had the detector on, it might've beeped at such and such a place"

He was curious as to where I picked up the signal on the detector of course, yet didn't want for me to actually confess to anything...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steve
I agree with most of what you say = format shifting to some is a NO NO.
Heck many would consider ANY KJ who uses COMPUTERS to be in violation of the copyright laws.  That entire subjects actually beem beaten to death.  lol

My orginal question might be a little niave in thinking that it would be ok to SELL a disk like that ....

Any computer user IS technically violating copyrights.  

I think you would also be wrong in "selling" a hard drive that you filled - even if the other has it.  If you are making money on the deal then you are violating copyright for personal gain which increases penalties.  Plus why would you want to, YOU did all the work, why make it easier for your competition - friendly or not?  Besides who's to say that they won't take the drive & make multiple copies off of YOUR hard work, not to say they might not anyway, but that's beside the point.  I you seling the drive for EXACTLY what you paid for it, then it might not be as bad - but still wrong.

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