Karaoke Forums

Hi,

I just recently came home (US) from a business trip to Japan, where our
hosts took us to a karaoke place (private room). I really enjoyed that. I
sang in key most of the time -- only Freddie Mercury was too big a challenge (I used to sing in a choir when I went to elementary school).

Anyway, so now I am thinking about buying a karaoke system for home use, also to teach my son and daughter to sing in key.

I have a few questions:

- All these formats are confusing me: should I get CDG or is enough
material available in DVD?

- Should I get individual components, reuse part of my stereo, buy an all
in one system?

- Any suggestions for a good system. I would like the following abilities:
* Multi CD/DVD changer so I can choose any song by keying in a number
similar to the system I experienced in Japan
* Good sound quality
* Digital key control
* Two microphones (wireless a good idea?) with individual volume control.
* Good value for the money.

Please help remove my ignorance. Also if you know of any good FAQ, bulletin boards etc. please let me know.

Morten

Morten, good questions -

You can get players that do both CDG and DVD made by Pioneer, Audio2000 and Vocopro -

To me karaoke on DVD is still a novelty and will not be more than that in the foreseeable future. Nothing personal, just not a big enough market.

I like portable systems - though they may not sound as "nice" as a component system, if you need a little peace it can be easily moved to another part of the house.

If you choose to use a component system, I would get a rotary DVD autochanger - READ CAREFULLY - Use the optical out and add a CDG converter. That way the kids won't be handling your expensive discs. With that you'll need a microphone mixer probably something like an Audio 2000 7100 mixer. It's simple, has key control and individual microphone volume control. I really think wireless can wait.

Hope that helps


Sammy

_________________
The opinions of Sammy do not necessarily reflect the views of the Karaoke Scene Magazine - Advice is given with a sence of humor and should be taken accordingly - If you have problems setting the clock on your VCR - You've come to the right place

Thanks Sammy,

So, if I wanted a portable system what would be good choices (brands etc.)? Can I get good sound quality out of a reasonably priced portable system?

Similarly, for componentt systems what would be good choices?

Should I initially reuse part of my stereo equipment or would I be significant better of with dedicated speakers and amps?

Finally, based on your comment on DVD vs CDG would there be any point in getting a dvd player?

Morten

Morten,
Congratulations!
You've made the best decision possible. You came here before buying anything. Check out the links found on the Karaoke Scene homepage for product info, then go to http://lonmanproductions.com/sale.html for more links.

I don't like stand alone, (turnkey), systems that do it all for you. Not enough bang-for-the-buck. I would find a good player, they all have all of the features that you'll need like pitch control and echo. If you get a player that plays DVDs, great you can now watch movies, but, most of the karaoke that's recorded on DVD is just reg CDG tracks that have been recorded on DVD without any audio advantages. DVDs are slow to cue up.

After you get a player, get a quality corded dynamic mic, (not a condenser mic). A condenser mic requires phantom power. Shure's SM-58 for around $100 is a solid choice. You see them being used on Letterman, The Tonight Show, MTV and on the country channels. If you're going to plug the mic into the player, get a short mic cord or you might not be able to enough mic at low listening levels. Whatever mic you deciede on, make sure that the mic cord is removeable. Don't go wireless. Any time you take a mic and remove the cord, and transmit the signal, then decode the signal and send it to a mic input, you'll lose dynamics. The only advantage to useing a wireless mic is the fact that you'll more mic input if you're just going from a player to your stereo. You can always go wireless by buying a snap-on transmittier and a mic reciever. Go to www.azdencorp.com for snap-on transmittiers.

Now once you've done all of this, it's time to plug into your stereo and see what you've got. The first thing that you'll notice is the fact that without a mixer, you won't have seperate tone controls for the mic and the music. Home stereo speakers won't like the dynamics of live voice either. Live voice is hard on speakers, and if you have 3-way speakers you MUST keep the treble down in order to avoid frying the tweeters. If you're happy with what you've got, great, stop there and be happy with you've got. If not, you can then upgrade.

If you deciede to upgrade, I would suggest that you spare yourself the time and money involved in learning about, and shopping for a conponent system, and look at Peavey's "Escort System". For $700 you'll get a 5 channel 150 watt stereo mixer amp, four, XLR inputs, (the best for mics, remember that removeable mic cord?), 2 stereo line inputs for connecting everything from your player to a seperate CD player to a walkman or TV/radio useing the headphone jack. You'll also get a high quality reverb and a five band graphic equalizer with feedback locator system. In addition to the mixer/amp you'll also get 2, two-way speakers with 10" woolfers and a piezo horn, and two, 25 ft. speaker cables, and 2 folding speaker stands, and a mic with cable, AND a carrying case that it all fits into with 2 wheels so that you don't even have to pick it up to move it!
You can call them toll free at 887-732-8391 or you can visit thier website at www.peavey.com

You asked for recomendations, and that's mine. I don't know it all, and if someone out there has a better or a more compleate or differant recommendation, please post it so that we'll all know.
Good Luck!

Post Script:
I forgot to mention that if you use a simple mixer without EFX, you'll lose your echo and need to buy a conponent, (or "outboard"), EFX processer.
I also forgot to mention that by using the aux. outputs on the "Escort System" you can add your stereo to the system or buy and add powered monitor speakers to it and run a show at your local bar.

Morten,
I must really be going brain dead in me old age.
I forgot to mention that there ARE other systems to look at, like: the L.U.C.A.S portable system; the Kustom Profile; the Carvin PA 620; and the Samson Expedition-EX series. I have some info on these systems, but I also have questions that I would like to have answered before I discuss them. I'll post again in a few days, and let you know what I've found out. I have some prices already, but I'm going to save that for when I post again.

Thanks guys,

so this is my plan so far: buy a tripple tray JVC/RSQ (any preference/ why can't I find a homepage for either?) and a (or two) Shure SM58 microphone. Try it out with my home stereo (150W mono blocks and floor stading speakers each with dual 8" woofers). I have an electric guitar integrated amplifier would that be better than the stereo?

See how I like it. Preferably without burning my stereo speakers. If I don't: find reasonable size speakers and amplifiers. 12" with horn and not too powerful amplifier is probably enough for home use?

How about source material. If I want the best sound quality and is interested in top of the chart songs for the last decade or so: like Simple Minds, U2, Creed, Shaggy, Bruce Springsteen, Brian Adams, Eric Clapton, and (even) Queen (for a challenge). What brand of CDG discs should I look at?

Thanks,

Morten

morten,
I had a compleate post nearly finished, and lost it due to some kind of a user error, so this is an abridged version of that post:
I went to the JVC site and got NO info. The only differance between the JVC and the RSQ is the fact that the RSQ uses a plastic lens to read the laser, and may have trouble reading some disks, especally copies, dirty disks, scratchy disks, etc.
As far as the equipment that you have. The guitar amp may not sound as nice as your stereo but it will handle live voice with no problem. About amp power. You're better off witrh a big amp that's not turned up too high, than a weak amp that is. A weak amp that's turned up too high will "clip". Clipping is when an underpowered amp fails to make a compleate waveform and "clips" the top off of it sending DC to your speakers. The speakers will get hot and the tweeters will be the first to go. Weak amps, (especally ones where the user has thin and or long speaker wires), will have very little dampening power and will sound overdriven. Go for 12 gauge wire even if you have to use spring clip adapters to make the connections.
Here's where I abridge things: Don't bother with the either the Samson or L.U.C.A.S. systems.
Go to www.kustom.com/profile and look at the Profile system. Stand mountable speakers, 3-band parametric eq, (tone controls). $499, and there is a carrying bag available for $100 more. Note the this is a 5-channel system with 4 mic channels that accept either XLR inputs or 1/4" jack. The 5th channel is a stereo line input for your player.
Next: Go to www.carvin.com and find thier portable systems. Buy direct from them and save $100s. Note that the first system is the only one pictured with the speakers mounted on stands, and that model with EFX is $89 more. Look under options. Thier 4-channel mixers have 3 channels with XLR connecters but only one of them accepts a 1/4" jack. The 4th channel is for line input. that's what you'll be using for your player. Note that the least expensive mixers have only 2-band parametric eqs. I emailed Carvin and asked about stand mountability and connector types and all I got was a glib answer from a consumer help trainee that this info was "all over" thier site. Still, I VERY highly recommend Carvin. Go to the discussion forum and look under "Building the perfect system" and you see the opinions of others on Carvin.
Finally: You asked about disks. I this is a can of worms that has been opened before, and I'm not going there. You can find answers to that question "all over" the discussion forum.
Can you believe that this is an abridged post?
Good Luck!

Kojak,

thanks for the extensive info. Hopefully I will be satisfied with my stereo and wont need the info on Carvin etc

Morten

Update,

I just bought myself a used tripple tray player (RSQ) for $65. Any idea where I can find a manual for it? I also ordered a U2 cdg from Sound Choice to test it out with.

Now where can I find a great deal on that SM58... Should I get the "s" version with a switch or is that not necessary?

Kojak,

I took a look at the Carvin website. Their PA systems look sweet. The price is also pretty good. For home use (for karaoke and for music when I have a party) should I consider the 12" woofer version vs 10" and how about power. My stereo has 150W monoblocks and I wouldn't like to go much lower (though the Carvin speakers are much more effective than my hifi speakers).

For home use how big speakers and amps would be necessary to have "pro" sound?

Thanks for all your input,

Morten

Morten,
Sorry but I haven't a clue as to where you can get a deal on SM-58s. I use a mic with a switch on it for announcing singers. It makes it convienant to turn the mic off so that I don't pick up irrevelant sounds during a singers performance. I don't give singers mics. with switches because they have a tendancy to turn then off before they sing, leaving me to give them a restart, or they turn them off when they're done singing, leaving the next singer with a dead mic. This is not a biggie for you at home or at a party. The only other downside to switched mics. is that a switch is a mechanical device that is subject to wear.

As far as speaker size and amp power is concerned:
A 12" woofer will give you bigger bass than a smaller one. The larger cone moves more air. If you look at differant woofers, (large vs small), within the same series, the tonal qualities sould be pretty much the same, as long as the specs. don't change.

As far as power is concerned:
Your amp should have "headroom", that is more RMS, (continuous), power than your speaker's RMS power handeling. This is to prevent the amp from failing to compleate the waveform and "clipping", or sending DC to the speakers, and to accomadate dampening. Dampening is the action of stopping the speaker cone from moving after the note that has been played is over. Poor dampening means "muddy" bass. You should have at least 33% and preferably 50% more RMS putput from the amp than the speaker's RMS handling. In the real world, most of us probably use about 100 watts per channel, (RMS), with pleanty of headroom.
The SPL, (volume), that a speaker puts out is dependant upon two things. The size of the speaker cones, and the sensitivity of the speaker measured in decibles. Try to go for 90 decebles or more. In order to double the sound level from a speaker, you have to use approx. 10 times the power, provided that the speakers can take it. The best answer to getting more sound is to add more speakers. Remember all that headroom that you should have? Like most of us, I'm probably using about of 100 watts RMS, But my amp is rated at 600 watts RMS per side at 2 ohms, Most amps are not rated down to 2 ohms, but will go down to 4 ohms which will increase the power output.

The smallest system by Carvin, (with the optional EFXs), will serve you just fine, but due to the fact that some of the cost of that system goes to the internal battery and its charger, I would recomend the next system. You could go larger, but why? The only reason that I could think of for going even larger is if you want to use the system outdoors. It takes more power to run out doors than indoors because the sound isn't confined. If and when you do go outdoors, go to mono.

I don't usally go into SUCH longwinded responces, but you're the first person that has come here before buying anything. I hope that all goes well for you and that you post again to let us know how it goes.

Good LucK!

Kojak,

again thank you very much for your very detailed recommendations!

Update:

I bought a SM58 on E-bay for $75 (NIB). I also ordered the U2 cdg from SoundChoice. Now I am just waiting for the goodies to arrive.

My plan right now if I don't like the sound from my stereo is to get a Carvin 200W 6 channel mixer with the speakers with 12" woofers. I figure that they will be very useful both for karaoke as well as parties both indoor and outdoor.

Morten

Morten,
The Carvin 6 channel mixer is an XLNT choice. This mixer will allow you to use a second player or tape deck and still have tone, (parametric eq), controls. Use an unused channel instead of the tape in or the efx return. If you want to add an outboard efx processer and have an open channel, you can use it instead of the efx return and have tone control right there in front of you instead of try to reprogram the eq at the processer.
In my last post I asked you, "Why go larger?". The only reason that I asked this was based on the fact that I haven't a clue as to what your budget would allow.
Like I said before, the 6 channel Carvin systen is an XLNT choice that will not disappoint you.
If you buy disks in sets, (or "bricks"), you will avoid having repeated songs, (there may be some exceptions). I like Sound Choise. The're a little pricey, but generally speaking, they have excellent quality. I have the DK Millenium collection, not because I think that the're the best, (I don't), but because much of my clientel thinks they're the best. They have a fake flute in the backround to help give some support to the melody. This bugs me no end, and they don't have timing indicators. On some of the tracks the backround color changes hue to indicate when a singer is to come in, but if it's never brought to your attention, you just might never notice.
Sound Choice uses timing dots. Much better. Some mfrs. do better at making tracks for differant types of music than others. Some do Country best, but not R&R. Some have a wider range of music types, but not nessarally a good SELECTION of songs. By this I mean that they may have a large song list , but a low percentage of songs that you would want to sing. Some, (Sweet Georgia Brown), have an decent level of quailty for most songs at a budget price but a few more poor tracks than others. Many KJs like Sweet Georgia Brown. You can find info on this in other posts found on the open forum.
Let us know how it goes!
Good Luck!

Kojak,

I was looking a little bit more on the Carvin pro sound systems. As far as I can read: the 200W PA620 is really a 2x100W mono amplifier (http://www.carvin.com/mixers/pagroup.html). Is that a good choice since the music (cdg) is in stereo (or perhaps mono only applies to the instrument inputs)? Also 100W/speaker into 8 ohm is less than my 150W (spec at low THD)/200W (RMS) Denon monoblocks. That sounds kind of low to me?

Is this a normal way to spec PA equipment?

I apologize for my "stupid" questions, but I have no experience with PA equipment.

Thanks,

Morten

Morten,
I must apologize. I didn't even think about some of these systems being mono. The least expensive stereo system by Carvin is the:
PA 800-822 for $1099.99, ($1100), plus $50 shipping. This system boasts a 1000 watts. According to the Carvin products cataloge, this mixer puts out 333 watts X 3. This is 333 watts for the right and 333 watts for the left channel, and 333 watts for a monitor channel. The speakers are 300 watt 12" 2-ways. There is a $125 "Free Money" offer with this system which can be used for accessories, (like speaker stands).
All of the 800 and 1200 series systems are stereo systems.
The Peavey "Escort System" for $700 is a stereo system. This is a 150 watt, (RMS), system that puts out 75 watts, (RMS), per channel.
The speakers are 2-ways with a 10" woofer and a piezo horn.
Niether Carvin nor Peavey says anything about what the speaker load is that produces this power, but it is probably 8 ohms.
The Peavey system has a reverb, and a 5 band graphic EQ. and a hi and low band pramectric EQ for each channel.
The Carvin system has reverb, echo, chorus, and flange, and two 9 band graphic EQs and a hi, mid, and low parametric EQ for each channel.
Either system will do what you want, but considering how much more you get for the $400 differance in cost of the Carvin vs the Peavey, I would go for the Carvin. If I ever deciede to get a second system, I just might do exactly that!

Kojak,

Just checked the Pa800. It is 333W @ 4ohm and 200W @ 8ohm. Both are per channel numbers (3 channels, left, right, monitor). As you also point out it is stereo. Sounds pretty good to me, though somewhat more expensive... The $1100 system AFAIK is with 12" woofers. I don't see a combo on the Carvin website with 10" woofers and that mixer (PA800)

Update:

today I received my used RSQ-MV333 (purchased for $65+shipping). I also received two cdg discs (Soundchoice U2 and a kids cdg also from Soundchoice).

I tested the player out with the two cdg's. However, I have not to receive my microphone (Shure SM58, $75) and therefore hasn't been able to test the microphone inputs. I am considering though to buy a $7 radio shack microphone to test it out with and if it performs too bad I will return it. Otherwise my son can sign childrens songs with it.

I didn't receive a remote control with the player. I am asking the seller for it. However, in case the seller doesn't have it I am thinking about buying one. Where would I buy a new remote control for an MV333?

Thanks,

Morten

Morten,
I don't know what AFAIK means. The 410-805 4 channel, (mono), and the 620-805 6 channel, mono systems features 805 speakers with 10" woofers. PA800 refers to the mixer. The P800-822 system has a PA800 mixer and comes with 2, 822 12" 300watt speakers. I recieved the Carvin products cataloge a couple of days ago. I didn't see any P800 series. systems that had 805 speakers either.

A Shure SM-58 mic for $75 is a great deal. Anything that you get from Radio Shack will be junk. Your players mic input will not like a long, or thin, mic cord. You just might not be able to get enough mic at low listening levels. I just checked and found that a 16ft mic cord works well, 20 ft would probably work also. I checked by running my player straight into my home system.

I don't know where you can get a remote, but with out one you won't be able to turn the on screen display on or off. The on screen display shows you the track number and how long the track has run. You also won't be able to turn the vocal replace or the vocal masking on or off. The vocal masking function reduces the vocal frequencys, and masks the vocals when using a reg. CD. The vocal replace is for when you use a disk with a guide, or instructional vocal MPXed in. By using this you can have the vocal part when your not singing, and when you are the vocal track is MPXed out. You can also remove the vocal track by using the MPX button found on the player.

If you run your player through a home stereo, you'll find that the tone controls don't work for the mic and music seperately. All that you can do is find a happy medium. The SM-58, (corded), has what's known as a proxcimity effect. If you bring the mic close to your mouth and sing gently into it, it'll sound more bassy and warmer than if you hold it away from you mouth. Experiment, but remember, don't turn the treble way up or you will put a strain on your speakers.

Kojak,

AFAIK=as far as I know (perhaps not a standard abbreviation?)

Against better judgement (and your advice) I did buy a cheap ($20) radioshack mic while I am wating for my sm58. I figured in the end the kids could use it and wouldn't have to use my Shure. I have been playing around with the tripple tray player, my stereo (150W low THD monoblocks and floor speakers with two 8" woofers each) and my cheap RadioShack mic. It sounds pretty decent -- now I am looking forward to receiving the SM58. I am also thinking about getting a dedicated 13" tv (can also be used in the kitchen when we are not singing).

All in all I am pretty happy. So far total cost including shipping is: $180. I do feel tempted to get a real PA also, however I think I will first play a little more with the stereo before plunging in...

BTW I turned the trebble down 10 dB to be on the safe side.

Thanks,

Morten

Morten,
If your happy enough using your stereo, (for the time being), you might just want to look at disks now, and save getting a PA for latter.
It's just my opinion, but, you could have the nicest system in the world, but if you only have 3 disks you're rather limited. I think that you would be better of with a so-so system and a lot of songs.
Let us know how it goes.
Good Luck!

Kojak,

good point, I think I will be getting some discs first. That foundation set looks nice, although a little pricey. Perhaps I will start with some bricks.

While I am waiting for the mic, I have bought an XLR cable (20"), should I get a Radio Shack XLR female LowZ to 1/4" phono high Z transformer/converter or is there a better solution that will keep the balanced properties of XLR and connect into the player?

Also, I need a mic stand or two. I wouldn't mind if it was not too expensive. Any suggestions for a good buy?

Thanks, Morten