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When 1+1 is not equal to 2
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Author:  Jian [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  When 1+1 is not equal to 2
This is something that bugged me for along time.
I am recording a song. I have 3 tracks; the backing, the main voc ,and the harmony
By itself the backing is a 30mb file, the voc also about the same size.
The question is how is it that when I mixdown I get a 30mb file and not the sum total of the 3 individual files? I still don't figure it out.

Another question is about VCD Cds. It have both video and audio. An audio cd of the song used up the whole cd. Where do they get the space to get the video in?

Educate me. :worship:
Author:  Charmin_Gibson [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Hmmmmmmm........... I dunno the answer to that Jian. lmao  When you figure it out post the answer here so I can be enlightened too why don't cha???


:wave:  BTW......... hiya



(Ignore me, trying to make my "required post" so I don't get eliminated..... someday I plan on getting to spend some more time here, and can't do that if the system removes me)
Author:  karyoker [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Basically audio mixes add if in phase cancel if 180 out or in between.. the amount of memory depends on the time or length in time of the track...It has nothing to do with audio content..

Video memory depends on the resolution in pixels A higher resolution takes more memory....just like a video camera...
Author:  Jian [ Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Hi Blue, Happay New Year.

Karyoker,

I still dont get it. I understand about phase and wave form, sine wave, etc. Can you get to the physic of it.

Then, this video plus audio thing still confused me.
Author:  Tony [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Badsinger @ Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:51 pm wrote:
This is something that bugged me I am recording a song. I have 3 tracks; the backing, the main voc ,and the harmony
By itself the backing is a 30mb file, the voc also about the same size.
The question is how is it that when I mixdown I get a 30mb file and not the sum total of the 3 individual files? I still don't figure it out.
Think of it this way, When you hear an orchestra, you're not listening to individual players, you are hearing the sum of all the players.
Author:  TopherM [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Think of each track as being a recording on a separate cassette tape. You have 3 minutes of vocal on on one tape, 3 minutes of backup vox on another tape, and the music mix on yet another tape.

Then, your mix is playing all three tapes at the exact same time and recording the resulting sound onto a 4th cassette tape. You end up with 3 minutes of mixed vocal, backup vocal, and music on the final tape.

Basically, like karyoker is saying the "data" part of the music mix that is taking up memory is not the music or the voice sounds, it is the length of virtual "tape" being used that then has to be read. So mixing three 3 minute tracks still equals the same amount of information in a single 3 minute mix!!
Author:  Jian [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
TopherM @ Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:59 pm wrote:
Think of each track as being a recording on a separate cassette tape. You have 3 minutes of vocal on on one tape, 3 minutes of backup vox on another tape, and the music mix on yet another tape.

Then, your mix is playing all three tapes at the exact same time and recording the resulting sound onto a 4th cassette tape. You end up with 3 minutes of mixed vocal, backup vocal, and music on the final tape.

Basically, like karyoker is saying the "data" part of the music mix that is taking up memory is not the music or the voice sounds, it is the length of virtual "tape" being used that then has to be read. So mixing three 3 minute tracks still equals the same amount of information in a single 3 minute mix!!



Now I got it. Thanks people
Author:  TopherM [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Oh, and also on the VCD question, alot of VCDs are layered, meaning there are two layers of information, the audio and the video. There are two separate lasers that read each of the layers while ignoring the other one. They are not physically in different layers like one above the other, they are more like concentric spirals running alongside each other. (think like the spirals of a record only much much tighter).

DVDs are similar except they are layered forwards and backwards and there is only one laser. You'll notice that at about the half-way point of a DVD there is about a 2 second pause. This pause is when the laser is transitioning from reading the disc forwards to reading the disc backwards (not the direction the disc is actually rotating, but it first spirals inwards towards the middle then spirals outwards as it reads the second layer.) This is the basic technological idea that make it so these discs can hold so much information!!!

The new BlueRay discs that are supposedly going to replace DVDs take this a step further, having 4-6 concentric sprials on a disc that is about 2 inches wide and holds 2-3X the info of a DVD..
Author:  Charmin_Gibson [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Well.......whut???   I guess I still don't get it.  :giveup:

I don't need to know though, my songs fit on SS, so that's good enough for me, I don't need to know any more than that.

Glad you got an answer to your question tho Jian. (and made me feel even dummer) :shock:

And........... [highlight=gold]HAPPY NEW YEAR[/highlight] to you too Jian.
Author:  pkircher [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Actually while topher is correct about the way dvd's work, cd's do not have layers, that is not in the technology for cds, and acually wasn't even perfected when dvd's were first released.  The reason why you can get video and audio on to a vcd and still have approximately the same amount of time is compression.  On an audio cd there is no compression what-so-ever, you are getting 100% or the original singal no trickery.  With VCDs the audio is compressed and the remaining space is dedicated to compressed video.  OK think of it like this when you rip a cd to your hard drive in .wav format this is uncompressed and for an average song it will take up about 30-40mb.  If you then compress this song to MP3 it will take up only 3-4mb leaving you 27-36mb of space to dedicate to the video which will also be extremely compressed.  Hope that helps.
Author:  Jian [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
pkircher @ Sat Jan 07, 2006 2:33 am wrote:
Actually while topher is correct about the way dvd's work, cd's do not have layers, that is not in the technology for cds, and acually wasn't even perfected when dvd's were first released.  The reason why you can get video and audio on to a vcd and still have approximately the same amount of time is compression.  On an audio cd there is no compression what-so-ever, you are getting 100% or the original singal no trickery.  With VCDs the audio is compressed and the remaining space is dedicated to compressed video.  OK think of it like this when you rip a cd to your hard drive in .wav format this is uncompressed and for an average song it will take up about 30-40mb.  If you then compress this song to MP3 it will take up only 3-4mb leaving you 27-36mb of space to dedicate to the video which will also be extremely compressed.  Hope that helps.



I got it: The space in an audio cd is 100% used up by audio but in the vcd this same space is shared with the video portion.

Then am I right to say that the quality of the audio in a vcd is lower that that of an audio cd? I am sure am right on this
Author:  pkircher [ Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: When 1+1 is not equal to 2
Yes the audio quality on a vcd is not nearly as good as a regular cd due to the compression.
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