Karaoke Forums

Okay, I know this subject has probably been done to death in the forum, so I'll just ask this one thing: Can anyone find a good link in the archives, or wherever, that promotes the MERITS of running a fair rotation? Just wanted to know if anyone knew any off the top of their head before I did a hard target search.

Here is the rotation I've always needed to run at this place: One stage appearance per go around, whether you are singing alone, in a duet, or in a group. I'm a true believer in absolute fairness for the kind of show we have here (Family atmosphere, anyone can sing, with a computer list that the customers sign up on themselves, and they see their place in the rotation on various T.V. screens).

The reason I'm asking to find a link is that my manager seems to think we should show favoritism to the occasional person who goes to her and complains about the wait! We got into a huge arguement about this the other night after a lady, with a table full of teenagers, complained to my manager that her daughter should be able to sing again immediately, only 4 songs after her first performance, or would they leave & complain to the owners! The selfish woman did not even come to me first. We had a fair 30 song rotation going at that time, & once again, I refused to give in. I tried to make all the normal "fair rotation is good for business" arguements, but her concept of good business is to make that one "whiner" happy, without regard to any of our other patrons.

Now my job is on the line, because I'm trying make a stand for something that has always good for their business in the long term. I've run karaoke for just over 11 years (5 years at this place), and I think that taking care of the customers in this way is part of the reason I've lasted. Not afraid to lose my job over this, but I love it so much! Anyways, I know many of you K.J.'s have dealt with this kind of situation before also, so sorry to harp on it again. I was just mostly looking for a good link on this site that might give me a little extra ammunition for my defense.

stick to your guns. When people talk about your show it isn't "that bar has a unfair rotation, It's that kj allows unfair rotation" and that will fallow you where ever you may go. You can't please them all, all the time. I would rather walk because I have my principles than to allow the owner run my business.

Ditto

Susie

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Simple, ask the manager what you're to do when Tom, Dick, and Harry along with Thelma and Louie, Larry, Curly, and Moe all come to her to complain about the rotation and they should be next.  Do you get my drift.  If one complains, have all your singers complain they should be next.  That should fix it.  I guarantee the manager will not take any more complaints about the rotation

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If you hand over control of your rotation you hand over control of your show and business to either the customers or the bar owner. And if you skip ahead for one person then you will be skipping ahead for ALL OF THEM as the word will get around that if you (@$%&#!) theyll put you up more or that you have no integrity and can be bribed or whatever. As to what to say to custies---never EVER SAY its good for business to be fair to everyone. All you have to do is point to the crowd and explain that THEY ALL WOULD LIKE TO GO AHEAD TO. Then you can ask the woman WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO STOP AND ASK THEM ALL if theyd like THEYRE KIDS TO BE SKIPPED OVER? Then simply say Im sorry but I have to be fair to EVERYONE HERE.(POLITLEY). If the the owner wont back you up then you need to leave that place. Because it will be done to you EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. You need to have a talk with the owner(NOT ON SHOW NIGHT-NOT IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT) and convince them. If they wont be convinced and insist on controlling yoru show you have to walk on them. So Stand your ground and be prepared to walk on them ON THE SPOT(if you have no contract). If you have a contract, continue running YOUR SHOW AS YOU SEE FIT and at the end of the contract time give notice.
It's an PERSONAL INTEGRITY ISSUE that you owe to your singers. And if the owners ask you to COMPROMISE your personal integrity then DUMP EM'. Cause they'll ask you to compromise some other integrity issue some other time.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Yup, I'll walk if it comes down to that. Did forget to mention that they own the equipment, so technically it's their business. Got my own full system, so I can go "independent" again if I have to. Kinda stinks that I moved down here from Knoxville to specifically go full time with them. C'est la vie.

Susie, you remember that company that ran karaoke at the OKC State Fair? I run it for them at their place down here. Only saying this because you would think they would CARE a little more than they do about a professionally run show with a fair rotation (at least I try to be a "pro" )! BTW, Susie, going a little off subject, I ran karaoke for them for the last few days of the OKC Fair in '04, and did get to see your show for a few minutes on break. Very impressive!

I agree with everyone else. Don't give in. And if you have your own gear...then find somewhere that TREATS YOU with respect...and the job you do.

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The simple fact that they arent backing you indicates they dont RESPECT you and merely see you as a replaceble flunky. Again I'd talk to them away from the heat of the battle and be ready to walk on the spot. Unless your WILLING TO DO IT THIER WAY. But believe me for them to argue with you in front of custies. THATS PLAIN AND SIMPLE DISRESPECT. And they OBVIOUSLY HAVE LITTLE REGARD for you OR YOUR OPINION. To them you're really not much more than another piece of karaoke equipment. Disposable. Replacable.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

I cannot agree more! You're brutally honest Swingcat, but it's probably all true.

My biggest problem is trying to CONVINCE them why you have think of ALL the audience, not just the "it's all about me" squeaky wheels.

Fortunately, Kurt, my booth is facing the stage, behind most of the audience. I think a few people did notice the arguement, though, especially the woman whose daughter I wouldn't move up the list !

A friend of mine who is a professional KJ actually walked out on a show over this very issue.  He was working at an in-house venue (he now has his own equipment).  
This bar owner had the mentality that his KJ was just a mere employee and had to obey no matter what.  One night there was this large table of big spenders and one of these was a talented singer.  The bar owner lectured my friend that this singer should get "priority" over the others (translation: sing more often) because these people were big spenders.  I told my friend that he should play "Take This Job And Shove It".  Well, anyway he turned the show over to the bar owner and quit.  My friend is still in this business and has a strong reputation for running a FAIR singer rotation.

I really don't understand the mentality of these bar owners who think they should cater to the "squeaky wheels" (those who whine) or the "big spenders" who represent very little business percentage wise and forget about everyone else.  This idea that "no one will know the difference" if singers are bumped ahead is utter nonsense.  I would also like to say that kjgreg is absolutely correct - when a KJ runs an unfair rotation it is the KJ's reputation that is tarnished, not the bar's.

This is a problem I think everyone has - I run my show consistantly with the same rules every show, but still have the same whiners week to week. I make them wait their turn and no matter how mad and drunk they are they always come back. The bar owner I work for backs me up 100%. That is a big difference. If there is a special circumstance ex: birthday etc.. I announce it. That way people don't mind. One time I had a bad drunk insist on singing twice in a row. He was aweful. So I announced over the loud speaker to everyone and asked if everyone would like to skip their turn for him to sing again. They all booed him.I haven't had a problem from him since. I wouldn't suggest to do that all the time, just uncontrollable singers.

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It's so NICE to hear from people who understand the concept of equal singing for all customers!

You're right Mike W., kjgreg make a great point, that I agree with, about how management playing favors would be a reflection of my show. It's too bad that they don't appreciate how much hell we would catch for their suck-up decisions, that is, if we let them control our shows.

The funny part is, Babs, is that it WAS that girl's birthday, and I sang happy birthday to her a few minutes before the controversy happened! She seemed like a nice kid, so I don't blame her, just her pain-in-the-rump mom. Would have been easier for them if they would've scheduled the party for a slower night, as opposed to a packed Saturday!

Acttually its both reputations that are tarnished. The KJ as REPRESENTATIVE of the BAr and the BAR for ALLOWING it to begin with and TOLERATING ALLOWING AND PROMOTING BLATENT unfairness and favoritism and disrespect to ANY of its guests. Again WORD of MOUTH is the best form of advertising and this WILL GET ADVERTISED with the resulting LOSS of CUSTIES and REVENUE to BOTH THE BAR AND KJ.

Does this BAR have a WEBSITE with a CONTACT we could EMAIL THEM THE LINK TO THIS THREAD???????

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Unfortunately, unless the customers clearly understand (and they usually don't) that the bar management is behind the "rotation shenanigans", the poor KJ will become the recipient of the blame.  Of course, if the customers actually know what is going on it will most definately tarnish the reputation of the bar.  Ultimately, an unfair singer rotation will hurt the bar's business no matter who is at fault.

If I ever take a job running an in-house karaoke show, i will make it clear to the bar owner that if I am asked to put someone up out of turn - I quit.

Well, Mike, some of the regulars do know about this situation and have an appreciation for the fight I'm putting up, so I guess that doesn't hurt. I think they pretty much know that if the rotation gets screwed up, someone else must be working that day. Their support would be key, if it came down to it.

That thought about showing my employers this, and other threads, crossed my mind too, Swingcat. If the outside opinions of what's been posted in this thread so far doesn't open their eyes and minds, then I give up! Well, not really give up, I'll just have to go out in a Blaze of Fairness !

If the owner is getting into it with you in front of customers it just shows that there is a lack of integrity, and the owner doesn't care anything about customers or you. All he cares about is making bucks and looking good in front of customers. (Just another headtripping, small person) Of course they don't understand that they usually are the ones who end up looking like the butt on a mule. A wide one at that.  The one thing I've learned in the entertainement and rest/lounge business is that the owners who do this usually lack integrity in all areas of their nasty little lives.  There ego is so damaged they need to get their jollys by making other people look small and themselves powerful.  Things won't get any better, take the suggestions and get out now. Are you willing to let your level of integrity get down to their level because of $? Given the fact that you see and feel the predicament that this owner is putting you in is a sure sign of good, responsible character.  Of course the owner will probably threaten that you'll never get another job in your town.  But for me that is preferable to working for a complete and utter piece of toilet tissue.

It all depends on how badly you need the income from this gig.
Need it? Then suck up to the boss
Don't need it? Walk out.
Simple.

I had this happen at the bar I work at currently. (I've actually had this happen at EVERY bar I've ever worked at, but that's not the point.) Joe, the owner/bartender came up to me when I had less than a half hour into the show. I'd already announced "no more singers", which means I've sealed the rotation. In fact, I didn't think I'd get through everybody without going over. We stop karaoke at 1AM, and the bar closes at 2, so most times, it's not an issue to extend the hours long enough to do what I want to do. There are times I'm tipped well enough where I'll keep the show going to 2, but not that often!

Anyway, I had a gal walk up and hand me her slip when I was adjusting sound on a current singer. I went back to her and handed her her slip, apologizing, but saying that the rotattion was already sealed, and I couldn't fit her in. She asked what time the karaoke stopped, and I told her.
"But that's 30 minutes! Ohhhh, I just got here and I REALLY want to sing. Could you put me in?"
"Nope! Sorry, but we start karaoke at 9PM, and go to 1AM. If you want to sing, then you should be here earlier during the night. I'm really very sorry!" And then walked away. But not before she made a horrible face and I KNEW that she was going to go to Joe the owner.
A few mins later, Joe walked up to me and asked me to let her sing. I refused. He blinked and repeated it saying she spent a lot of money, and her guy friends were always buying her drinks.
I retorted, "Joe, where has she been all night? She's already drunk, which means she's been spending at ANOTHER bar, and wants to come in here, nurse a drink, and participate in the entertainment that ALL these others have paid for. Sorry, but no. I'm not going to be able to get to all of them. What do I say to these folks if I do as you ask."
He thought a moment and said, "Just say that you're getting a friend of mine up before you shut down."
I grinned and said, "Fine! BUT I'll be sending ALL of the complainers to YOU. I will not take personal responsiblilty over this."

And I did put her up. And the prissy b**ch acted all superior... until she realized that SEVEN of my regulars all rushed up to complain to me, and all I said was "Talk to Joe. He overrode me." And Joe was trying to keep his calm, but almost all the regs pointed out how much money that THEY spent during the night, and he had nowhere to go in his arguement back.

As I was tearing down (I'm pi$$ed by the way), he came up and said "Man, I'll never do that again."

And I told him if he ever did, I'd shut down and never come back. He looked surprised and a bit ticked, but then I continued. "Joe, you made me look like a fool in front of a following we've built for years. I've been a Karaoke HOST for many, MANY years, and my rotation philosophy is based on the MISTAKES and the wisdom that I and many other KJs have learned over those years. Do I tell you how to serve folks? Do I tell you what foods to serve, what drink specials to run? The sooner you learn that I'm a professional and know what I'm doing, the better off we'll be. And I'll tell you another thing. I'll bet you my night's salary that they (the prissy gal and her entourage) only bought one drink EACH... IF that."

That floored him! TOTALLY. Because I nailed that last fact.

He tried it one other time after that, and I was in a really good mood, and told him, "Do you want a repeat of the last time?"

"Well Matt, it IS my bar! I DO pay you."

"No, your CUSTOMERS pay me. If this weren't affordable to you, you'd have canned me a long time ago, and we both know that. So it's NOT you that calls the shots, it's these CUSTOMERS!"

Now, when folks complain to him, he immediately tells them, "Talk to Matt. He's in charge of karaoke. I just serve drinks!" And it kills the complainers.

They think that they'll "get you into trouble"...

For those that run "house" systems, my recommendation is to talk to the owners or managers. Let them know that yes it's their system, but that they don't hear all the COMPLIMENTS, only the complaints, but if you start mucking around with the rotation, trust me, they'll hear a LOT of the complaints. Just tell your customers when they start complaining, to go talk to the management and ask why they are screwin' around with the rotation!!!

KJchrisc- I really feel for you. I went to bed last night talking about it. I have to put up with a lot from singers. If the bar owner didn't back me up I'd be beside myself. Remember you've done nothing wrong! If confirmation is what you need - I think everyone here would agree.

Allstar - I need your thick skin. You are so right. I hate dealing with the demanding song hoggers. I wish I could just tell them like it is and not let the confrontation bother me. I decided what bothers me the most is they make me be a b*tch. I try so hard to be diplomatic and calm. But dealing with drunk people who won't take no for an answer gets under my skin.

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babs, I have clear rules in the front of my book... the first page of both the song titles section and the artists section of my song book.

Do NOT ever lose control in front of a customer. Tell them "NO" and stick to it.

I liken my rotation to a line in a bank, or a line in an amusement park. It's a rather simplistic way of looking at it, but the folks that have been there all night don't like it when others get bumped up. They may not remember where their car is after hours, but they certainly know that they're following a certain person.

If you "ARGUE" you lose... it's YOUR show.

I tell folks if they complain too much, they'll go to the absolute bottom of the list, because now they're Fn with ME and the way I run my show.

They're ALWAYS free to choose another.

Now I don't have to do that very often... seems it's usually the DIVAs that think that they're special and should be given special accordance. I tell them to ride the short bus with the flavored windows and to leave me the heck outta their delusions of grandeur.