Karaoke Forums

We were discussing this on the other topic, but thought I'd move it to its own topic...anyway, I've been thinking about this.  

I don't think you can definitely say that just because people are always saying nice things about your singing that they are not being honest.  There are many reasons why you could be wrong.

First of all, not everyone has the same ear or tastes.  It may sound like crap to you (ESPECIALLY if it is your song because you always hear stuff in your own songs that others don't) but that doesn't mean others agree.  Not everyone can hear the flat or otherwise sour notes, either.  

Or, they know they don't like it but don't have the words or musical background to know how to say it...no one wants to just say "you suck" or "I don't like your voice" etc.

People on here probably skip commenting if it's something they hate, so if they are saying nice things to you, they may actually like it...or if you don't get many comments, the other people could just be avoding saying negative comments to you.  That doesn't mean they are not being honest, it just means they don't want to hurt people's feelings.  Nothing wrong with that!  Or maybe they don't want to listen to bad singing, so they skip it, in which case they can hardly comment or rank you, if they only hear two seconds of it and then shut it off. I avoid commenting, myself, if the person is really bad and I can't think of ANYTHING helpful to say.  

People may be diplomatic...they give you the good comments but don't want to give you the bad ones (which is their right, again).  So they may be thinking "Nice job, except for that one part where you suck" but they only type "Nice job".  

Personally, I love singing, karaoke and otherwise, and I am not usually overly critical or picky.  My husband doesn't like hearing any of it, he always complains when it's on, no matter how good it is...I am always yelling at him, what do you mean? This guy is great!  So, you never know, people all have different opinions.  To me it seems kind of paranoid to think "aw, these people are not being honest when they say I'm great".  Who knows? Maybe you are just being too picky and they really do think you are great.  

And even if I do say negative comments on here, that doesn't mean I hated it...I usually say nice things as well, and I am honest about those, too...there are very few singers on here that I don't enjoy hearing.  

Maybe those of you who complain about people not being honest are just too negative and picky, and so you can't enjoy SS, no matter how honest people are.  

Now, addressing the other side, I think if you choose "critique and rank me" and you get negative comments, you shouldn't get upset about it or get mad at the person giving you those comments because they took the time to listen to you and give you critique.  You should be grateful, whether you agree with them or not.  If not then you should always choose "Just For Fun".  

SS is mostly for fun and can help you learn how to record and sing better.  But feedback here should not be your only goal when recording or when singing.  You will never be satisifed if you are only hoping that people here will give you high marks and lots of comments.  Work on your singing for YOUR OWN ENJOYMENT and record songs because you like it.  Otherwise, you are going to set yourself up for a lot of disappointment.  If you want more feedback, take voice lessons!  That's what they're for!!    

If you are going to worry about every little comment and rank, that is not normal...get therapy  :madgo:

I think most people on here are very nice and it's a great site, great group! I have been on many forums/boards and there is very little fighting or dare I say, DISHARMONY on the site.  Good for us all!!  :beermates:

Now, go listen to my songs, and comment and rank me, dammit! !!  

Now, why isn't there a SINGING smiley face in our emoticons???

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

[font=andalus]guuuuurl.. you did NOT just go and open this can of worms now did you?? ..   Yea.. this kind of stuff will always be a hot topic, and it comes and goes in cycles.  I agree with most of what you said..

I don't necessarily think that people are LYING when they say nice things.. for the most part I think they are OMITTERS.. which isn't the same as lying.  I think they just accentuate the positive b/c they don't feel comfortable with the critical aspect.  Where the problem comes in, and it crosses into "FLUFFDOM" (yea.. i made that up all by myself ), is when a person goes WAAAY out of their way and says outrageously positive things on an song that is obviously in need of improvement.  You know what i mean.. the "Oh my GOD.. that is the BEST Thing I have EVER heard in my ENTIRE life"... that overboard stuff when it is a song that is in need of work can be ridiculous, but for the most part, I think people don't go that far, they just merely point out what they found positive about something... like "i enjoyed hearing this" or "nice job on this, I liked hearing your version" . There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

Now when it comes to the "Critique Me" catagory... YOU open YOURSELF up for critiques in that, so I agree, that you have to be willing to take what comes with that.  If you don't like getting criticism.. DON'T CHOOSE THAT catagory..  easy enough.  As far as what people SAY  to songs in that catagory.. There will ALWAYS be people who just are NOT comfortable with critiquing.  They may not know how to adequately articulate about what it is they are hearing in their minds, and they just don't feel like they WANT to or are ABLE to do that.  So just because a song is in the critique me catagory doesn't mean EVERYONE will critique it, and that is fine.

It should be up to the listener whether they choose to take that option or not.  All that clicking on that catagory means, is that you are WILLING to accept critiques should anyone be WILLING to give them.  I'll admit that when I am going around and listening (yes it's been a while), I sometimes give FULL and detailed critiques, but other days, I am just too tired and don't feel like doing all that typing and may just point out one thing that overall stood out the most.. And on other days, when I don't feel like being "critiquerous" at ALL (yes..made that up too), I'll just choose to point out the positive or leave a note saying I enjoyed it.  It should be up to the listener how they want to handle the critique me subs.  They have the right to choose whether they will take that open option or not.

I wish there were more people critiquing and that's what I think gets frustrating for some people who DO like to be critiqued and who like to learn new things and get brutally honest feedback.  YES there are people out there like that.  And because most people shy away from the critiquing aspect, they don't get what they want out of this site, and they get frustrated with all of the "nice" comments.  I could see how that would be frustrating.. They shouldn't automatically assume though, that these people are liers.. They just don't LIKE to critique.  If it didn't take SOOO long to REALLY do a good critique, I would LOVE to do it to every "C" song.  It's too bad we can't hire some people to just sit and do that all day .  But as it stands, I guess we're just going to have to accept that they will come sporadically, and hopefully as new people come and are encouraged to share their opinions, we'll get more people who like to do so.

For now, I like to think of this as a fun place to share your love of music, and once and a while maybe learn a little something new... [/font]

Glad you agree with me...you keep making up those words  I like 'em!

I agree about how it is tiring and time-consuming to comment...that is another reason why people might not do it too much or in too much detail.  It is definitely easier to just say "nice job", too.

I have never said "this is the best thing I've heard" but I have heard many songs here that I thought were fantastic, gorgeous, beautiful, sound professional, etc. and I always say so.  Not everyone's that picky or can hear the problems that you hear.

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

Yes, this subject has been practically beaten to death on several occasions, but you both make some good observations.

I don't have as much time as I did when I first came to go through and critique almost every 'C' song on the day's new subs list... but I still try to go through and do some.

I have to say I probably 'critique' less on the subs that are really good, I'm more likely to leave something saying 'wow, that really blew me away' or whatever, but even then I usually try to say something specific like.... "excellent pitch and powerful vocals" or something apropos to the song.

When songs 'need' work, or even if they're pretty bad  :shock: but up for 'critique', I will do my best to be specific about what the singer needs to work on. Of course, I'm one of those folks who lacks enough formal training to know every little nuance of things that need improvement, but I do my best. I figure those with the most room for improvement, yet submit to the 'C' category, have the most to gain from objective feedback. I could be wrong of course, but that's the way I work.

Seby---->

OL!!!

Does Gilly need a spanky??? heheheheh

muahahah

I know the subject has come up a lot, but it keeps coming up and being mentioned, and that's what reminded me to post this. I still see people griping about it, even though there are a lot of people here who do give honest criticism.  Matt was mentioning in the other topic that he doesn't sub any more for that reason, and that seems a shame.  But I also thought part of what he said was kind of paranoid (sorry Matt) because I really don't think people are lying just because they said they love your song.  We all are different people, with different perceptions.

I think some people have a hard time separating the song from the singer, so they rank a song low just because they hate the song and not because it's sung poorly.  Or they can't take that someone sings it differently from the original.  Or they are easier on their friends or people they like.  Also sometimes you can hear improvement in a person so you are comparing their song to their previous songs, so you might rank them higher for that.

And I really think with pop and rock music, it is not always "in tune", even the songs you hear on the radio.  It's not like singing classical music where everything has to be perfect in the rhythm and pitch. I think attitude, energy, and emotion are more important in popular music.  Also, these pop and rock stars have professional studio recordings that cover up more flaws; we don't have all that stuff to help us out.

And, also, we are ALL better live than we are in recordings.

Just my two cents, but I may be biased since I get a lot of comments about my pitch!!  

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

Not me. I am horrible live:) Or, maybe.. if is just MUCH easier to sing to my computer, than to humans....nah, my cat doesn't even seem to like my singing... but, he rocks out to my recordings...... or, maybe that is the kid... Oh, I can't remember.


But, about pitch, etc... i don't listen to pitch, unless it is REALLLLY distracting... like, ALLLL over the place.. however little bits, can be compeltely overlooked, if the persons actual VOICE is SOO compelling, or, unique, or... i dunno, exciting... dramatic,  emotional... just ANYTHING.. i don't even notice the pitch problems, unless I am directly asked to point them out. Also, I don't rank, so, this doesn't mean anything, BUT, I DO notice improvement in people, AND, in my head, I rank them higher, because, i can HEAR the improvement... I can't really do that, with peopel I have never heard before... Also, I like "different" voices... so, if the person doesn't "catch" me.. doesn't grab me... I don't really care to listen, good or not.. regardless of how much someone else likes them... I also, honestly really don't care for country.. and occasionally.. just the SOUND of the song, which is so obviously country, that I can't stand to listen... or, yeah, maybe I hate the song.. although, off the top of my head, I can't think of a song i hate.. unless you can count the entire works of mariah carey, celine dion, .. etc etc... hmm, ok, maybe I DO hate some music.... BUT, i can still appreciate a persons voice who happens to be singing a song i despise.. ALTHOUGH, i hate it when people have a fit, if you sing a song differently than the original.. i don't see what is wrong with doing that, as long as you retain proper phrasing, and don't lose the actual musicality of the darn song.. and.... oh, people hear... say Christina Aguilera sing  a song. and they associate it with her.. and then, someone like ME sings it, and they think, well, SHE sounds nothing like Chris. A. and the immediately think that you have destroyed the song..

Ok, put me to bed. DO not bother reading all of that unpunctuated babbling.

Geez, between this thread and Gilly subbing "Try Honesty" yesterday, you make me want to resub Billy Joel's "Honesty" again. And, you know, I'll bet I do that before the end of the day now that I've said it. But aside from that, I think you all brought up a lot of good points as to why people may choose to comment or not comment or ommit certain things from their comments.

But I think the fact that we all have such diverse tastes in music and styles and, yes, even physiologically-speaking, our ears actually hear things differently. Plus add to that how different all our electronic listening devices are from headphones to speakers and even how our computers handle audio file formats like MP3 differently based on the codecs our computer's use. Do you see where I'm going with this? There are just so many variables to consider both when you are listening to someone's sub as well as when you are considering someone's critique of your sub.  Too many variables to considers. They may have just been having an "off" day either while singing the song or even mixing the song - or maybe I was just having an "off" day and not really in the mood to hear the kind of song they were singing.

More and more I'm thinking that SS should offer an option for just "Ranking Only" where you basically give the listeners the option to just rank the song from 1 to 10 or maybe go to the 5 star rating system or whatever and just leave it at that because it really seems like there are just too many variable's to consider that most people don't consider when they leave comments like "too little echo." Well, where were they listening to the song - in a noisey room? Or in a busy office during lunch with their speakers turned down so they couldn't pick up all the echo effect? Or even "too much echo" - maybe the sub was "echoed" perfectly through speakers but the listener is using headphones so the confined sound picks up more of the effect then was intended.

So, personally, I think if you overall enjoyed what you heard - if you continued listening to the song because you liked what you were hearing and if you wanted to hear more then that was a very good to performance quality sub (or an 8 to a 10 by rank). I think any song you sincerely want to listen to two or more times because you enjoyed it is probably deserving of a 9 or 10 for sure. Now maybe you could pick it apart in certain areas if it was an 8 or a 9 - but why bother - shouldn't near perfect be perfect enough for anyone considering how imperfect we all are? Would you expect perfection in a live karaoke song environment? You enjoyed it, if you feel like saying "Hey, I loved the song. It touched me in a special way because..." then great. Comment, rank it and move on.

Now if the person specifically says in the description: "I honestly want to know where I screwed up in this song because I think the timing is off or it's out of my range, etc" then definitely give the person the specific help they're looking for. Otherwise, just figure that even if they're subbing it for a "rank and comment" it may really be a "Just for Fun" sub where the fun part is seeing what rank the song receives and then seeing if they can improve the rank by redoing the song later. In other words, they chose the imaginary "Just for Fun with a ranking" button.

Hope some of what I said made some sense but I'm only a 1/3 of the way through my second cup of coffee so I may be a bit delusional right now for the lack of caffeine

See ya!

Love and hugs,

I definitely agree that there are many variables and that's why no one should assume that someone is not being "honest".

I was in a mood to comment this week so I posted some short critiques, even though I said I was mostly going to tell people to PM or email me...they were met with some hostility from a couple of people, which I did not appreciate.  If someone takes the time to listen to your song and makes comments, you shouldn't get offended and use the opportunity to tell them off.  But, at least most people were nice about it.

If you don't want comments, don't ask for them!  It's that simple!

BTW I usually rank pretty high, even when my comments seem very negative.  I always put postivie comments as well but people sometimes seem to ignore those if you get them a negative comment.  Oh, well!!

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

Hi Suzanne,

I really think that the problem rests in the fact that many people just want their song's ranked without necessarily having the song picked apart but the system doesn't offer you that option. In other words, if the ranking selection, for example, was coupled with the "Just for Fun" comments rather then the "harsher" Critique comment selection then people wouldn't be picking a part the songs. They'd be ranking the song with whatever they thought it deserved and then if they felt like adding a "comment" (vs. a critique) about the song or how or why they enjoyed it then fine.  But the alternative might be with a "Listen Only with Anonymous Rank" selection where you listen, you rank and you move on.

I don't think it's completely fair to say to someone "If you don't want the comments - don't ask for them" when a user wants to enjoy the "ranking" part of the system but isn't permitted to uncouple the comments from the ranking.

I'll never forget subbing a song and someone commented about some off-key area of the song and I agreed it was there and had actually determined to pull the sub the first chance I got to fix the problem. So I deleted it, edited that one section which was only a few words and resubbed the song. The person later critiqued the revision and said they liked it so much more because I sang it with "so much more feeling this time." It was the SAME song as before with SAME feeling as before but only a few words corrected cause they sounded a little flat. So what changed - the feeling I put into lyrics or the listener's attitude toward those lyrics on their second listen? Obviously, the latter because nothing else had changed. So if earlier they had said "I'd like it better if it was sung with more feeling" - how valid a critique would that have been? What if I was to pull the sub and re-do the whole thing based on that critique?

And yet a "negative" critique like that bothers some members because there's a feeling that it's going to prevent other people from listening to the song at all or maybe influence the rank that next listner assigns to it in a negative way, for example; "Gee, should I really spend my time listening to a song where there was a lack of feeling when I can go listen to a different singer who I know always sings with feeling?" OR "Yeah, it should have been done with more feeling" even though all the feeling was actually there.

If we're going to critique then let it be constructive from an objective standpoint and make certain it's not a subjective critique. Otherwise, just let the rank speak for itself and maybe thank the singer for subbing the song and move on. Just my .


(P.S. - Naturally, I did go ahead and resub "Honesty."
)[/u]

No comment!

hey.. no fair.. you DID comment! "No comment".. IS A COMMENT!
Now, truely NOT commenting, would be a "no comment".....


ARGHGHGHG!!!!!

Well, there is a problem with a 'rank but no critique' option. Those of us who try to be pretty honest will inevitably end up giving a low rank on a song, then we will be berated for doing so. The way things are set up now, we have the opportunity (and obligation) to give an idea why we give the rank we do.

Still, not everyone goes that far, but most people will mention problems in a song if they give a lower rank. Of course, we all have our own systems of ranking, so there is no standard, but at least with comments we have the opportunity to explain a bit why we ranked what we did. It could be argued that if the person didn't want to see the comments, it's their problem and they would then have no right to complain if they didn't get a high rank, and it would be a valid point... but I don't know how well it would go over.

Admit it Gilly. Skyla is a clone. Sheeesh, she look just like you. I am posting my rant on this topic later. Just a comment.

jvj

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

Well this is a place to hang my rapper cap or whatever. Whatever happened to Baby Jane - she became a subber on Karaoke Scene. Just Kidding. It's the meds, and I don't even really take any.

I feel at times like when I was at the mall with a female I was dating, model quality looks and body, and felt, as some females had, that I have a particular ability to pick out clothing and color matches. She came out in this ghastly wool thing that looked horrid and hid all her curves and made her look like a catapillar (sp?) Woody Allen type internal debate - do I - tell the truth - thereby ruin my potential romantic enounter for the evening totally and perhaps the relationship in general or do I overtly lie, or do I simply say, well liked the other dress better.

I must admit I read Jazzy's post and it is worthy of pro critique thing in style really. Especially new words. I like new words. I make up my own special words as does "the Seb" often and amazingly years back may have had a part in starting such show stoppers as "ya think", "come with", yet those of this island earth "flufforama" should examine the perplexities of commenting and rating in our little microcosm here. Am I rambling. Hey, it's been awhile.

First. Popularity. We love to be loved. I mean aside from Karoakeville this is a social meeting place and we have many friends here. Now you take person X, age, looks, talent, voice, personality, the whole package. You read a few post, look at the pic, and well, only a few here are super lookers (with a bit of enhancment) so we have to jump "liking a person for themselves" but then we have this nasty other part "like their subs and music for itself."

And what is worse there is the reallly sticky part of intent, emotion, versus actual measurable musical quality. There is the minefield of SS. You want your point value to catapult through the floor, go play "Simon" for a day and honestly and brutally critique all the subs for the last few days. Granted - there are a few HONEST (like gold) people who want to get better and are saying help me out here. And YOU CAN. You can tactfully use every euphimism you can muster. If the entire song was basically flat you can say.. well it's kinda pitchy.

I do think there should kind of rule in here and that is don't comment on music you don't like as in genre. If you hate punk, recent example here, and the theme is punk, don't do to a punk sub and say "I don't like this kind of music" and then really let's face it. You can't critique it. It's like me critiquing rap.

I don't like rap. I don't like hip hop. I do consider myself a cut above the rest, because even if I hate a genre, I can go in and still appreciate good rap versus bad rap. But I wouldn' think of going into a rap sub and critiquing it.

I am not a country fan either, and there is a LOT of country on SS. Yet I gotta admit, like Crystal's subs and several others, even so, there are a few real decent country singers in here. Like MLTexas. He is a natural. So I will creep in the country subs and there are a few who I personally think are near pro or pro and maybe make a few comments.

But, look. The can of worms - and without it the forums can get a little snoozy, is the essence of Karaoke is amateurs performing like a pro with a pro backing music. In the bar, drunk, and with a group of friends, it doesn't matter if you are the living image of Patsy Cline when you do Crazy. You can drop into a born with country sound, stay halfway on pitch, and with a little cheering and applause quickly come to the conclusion you are a talented and great singer.

And so it went on KS until such people as Syber and I came along. Being a musician and passable singer, I ran into some ethical and popularity quandries for which there are no simple solutions.

Really cute or not cute females who have a heavy male following and cannot sing in key. I think except for a few really precise singers, everyone is a little pitchy, and hits a dull note now and then, but we have singers who like a 50/50 bar are half on and half off. A male or female doing Alternative can get away with this because a lot of male Alt sounds like the singer has just hit pubescence and is warbling between pitch and has this kind of raw non-singer sound.

And some singers when told they are off, know it, work on it, and finally make major improvement. Some cannot hear it. And I now think also some listeners cannot either. We all don't share the same ears and there you are stuck with a quandry. You have a subber who is flat, wants comments, I swear, if you do post they are flat, look to see a barracuda raid of all your rated subs soon after you post it.

Mixing comments are cool but I really don't think a sub should be rated on mixing. We are not competing to be DJs here. The focus is on the voice. I do think emotion is important, but an elephant can bleat with emotion. It is signifcant how that emotion is artistically performed in the song.

Many singers will blast out in operatic vibrato thinking that that is emotiion. Or just get louder. And many times as a singer gets louder, their voice control, pitch, and everything kinda falls apart. So we have what would call the softie pro. Many of these are females. Singing softly their voice is sweet sugary and angelic - when they go for that power Pat Benatar hit - then the world comes down.

So in conclusion - tired eyes and yawns

We cannot take the doctor approach in the Karaoke social world. "the patient is dead and there is no hope."

I have strong postive warm fuzzy feelings - jeez nausea huh - for some singers who are kinda average but I just enjoy their subs and tell them so. I can say I enjoy it without saying it is a Grammy quality performance.

And we have the ravers - which would be cool and no one, no one dislikes a really positive comment. But I refuse to go rave at everyone's sub to be popular. I have NEVER posted what I feel was a dishonest comment.

I believe I once created a new application word "the snipe" and well, things have improved. And you know, when I post a song and it gets all 10s, I could for safety's sake pull it off the comment list and forever hold the 10 as part of my average.
Honesty - you can't be honest, popular, and keep a high rating forever. Cos one single person or a few is going to get stressed and come back and hit you with "what is fair" but what is not something they would rate any of their friends regardless of the quality of the sub.

the neverending story...

jvj

_________________
There are no accidents in a perfect world   - Blondie

 GILLY?!?!  DEB?!?!? DID YOU GET A BOOB JOB?

(I couldn't resist.. boob job was the first thing I thought of when saw "enhancement" and then I had to think of a looker... and well... c'mon... Deb and Gilly came to mind first! )

ok... leaving now

love the new pic crystal...

Hi SC,

First, you gotta check out this latest Garfield cartoon that Yahoo.com is running today (5/4) and tell me if it isn't perfect for this thread:




I couldn't resist linking it into my "Honesty" song sub today.  LOL

Now moving on to what you said in the above quote; I completely understand what you are saying about giving low ranks and retributions (so to speak) from the rankies which is why I suggested the alternative "Listen Only with Anonymous Rank" (sounds like a dinosaur "Well, we're pleased to announce that we discovered the head of this Tyrannosaurus Rex next to the skeleton of the Anonymous Rank"). See how easy it is for me to stray...stay on topic, Christopher, on topic, on topic.

The way it is right now, as far as I can tell, the only way I could tell if you or anyone else ranked any of my songs below a 7 (and fortunately I'd only feel the emotional sting of that 6 or lower for as long as it took me to find a razor blade and slash my wrists.  LOL Wow, couldn't you just see the headlines after that! "Ranked Singer Chooses Death over Delete Button - film at 11."  ) but, anyway, I'd only know your ranking if the song receives an overall rank from three members and then I do the math to average out what those 3 members probably ranked my song.  But I really think that in the very low ranking situations, the singer not only has an obligation to express their critique as you were saying above but the submitting singer owes the listener the opportunity to express their critique as a courtesy because we actually took the time out of our day to listen to their song.

BUT what if singers had the option to ask listeners to simply rank the song anonymously...you could be completely honest in your ranking without any concern about having someone come over to low-rank snipe one of your songs simply out of retribution. If you felt the song deserved a "3" (I think #3 is "Submissions from singing cats are not allowed.") then you could just go ahead give the song a 3 and move on. When the system gives the overall rank for the song and it comes out to be a 2 or 1 (I think #1 is "have you considered having your vocal chords replaced with those of a singing chimpanzee?") then that singer has got to get the "message" that they need to work a lot harder on that sub. So they would still benefit from the honest ranking more then in a commented rank where you feel like you've got to rank higher (give the song perhaps a 7) just so you can then give your feedback which wasn't really wanted while the rank was wanted and which may not be appreciated anyway.

I wonder if Phil the SS programmer is following this thread and if he has any opinions about adding a "Listen Only and Anonymous Rank" option to the selection list.

So I think I'm agreeing with what you said and basically saying that it can be overcome with anonymous ranking and that the subbing singer could potentially benefit more from a truly honest rank without a comment rather then a padded rank with a critique.

Hugs  :hug:  to you, SC!

Thanks Tig


And Chris.... that cartoon: That's fricken awesome! I love it!