Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: Syberchickie, question for you

Remember a few days ago you were talking about various singing stuff, and you said something about it's possible to tell fake vibrato from natural cuz the fake one doesn't sound good or something. Can only an expert do that, or anyone?

Good Mornin' y'all... Hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts to this thread. I actually have a few minutes this morning before I have to leave and this topic caught my attention. I hope Phil doesn't mind me linking you to a little article I came across that specifically talks about vibrato and some of the different kinds of problems that arise with it... VIBRATO ARTICLE

As you can see, vibrato is mostly having to do with the tension you have in your throat and your ability to manipulate that tension. I liken healthy vibrato to holding a can of soda with a relaxed hand. You still need some amount of control, so you can't be too relaxed.. when you totally let go of all control, then you can end up with pitch problems and warble. You still need to have control of your voice, BUT withOUT pressure. Ie, holding the can with just enough control that it does not fall, but without "squeezing" it or having tension in your hands. When you hold your larnyx (voice box) securly in place, that is how a "straight tone" is produced.

There is a big debate in the vocal world over whether or not vibrato or straight tone is the way to go. You can see that in this article, they seem to put down "straight - toned" singing as being unacceptable and unhealthy for your voice. Some people will agree with this, some do not.

I for one believe that IF straight tone is done in a supported and non-pushed way, it can be just as healthy a way of singing as natural vibrato. The problem comes when people push from the throat instead of keeping those abs rock solid and letting them do the work regulating the air flow. I see vibrato as a way to "color" your sound, and once you have good control over your voice, you can use it in varying degrees to get whatever effect you desire whether it be a shimmery vibrato that only comes at the end of a note as in jazz, a full bodied free and open vibrato used in opera, or a pure straight tone that can be so ethereal and pure and is perfect for close harmonies such as in barbershop or jazz choir. It's like the different colors on a painter's palatte.. your bag of tricks.. the more you have, the more varied and interesting you can make your singing. It would be quite boring if paintings were only in black and white or one color.

Just be wary that you are producing whatever effect you are going for in a healthy manner. If it hurts or you get tired quickly, chances are that you are either putting too much or too little pressure on the larnyx, or you are not supporting the sound correctly. If I get a chance, I may put up a sound file demonstrating different techniques both good and bad..

Elisha

when syber critiqued my second song..she mentioned my vibrato like it was soft and natural sounding... as if I had worked in my song through cool edit....not so... very natural...and if I relax it...its worse...hence I have no problem singing dolly songs...cept they are to darn high...

ps...many a time I have been asked if I sit on a vibrato to sing my songs...people have so little tact now days.. lol

diaphramatic vibrato is actually quite unnatural and can be very damaging to the voice as it puts a lot of pressure on the chords. If you don't know what diaphramatic vibrato is, it's pulsing using your tummy to create a "fake" vibrato. This vibrato is acceptable on some instruments like oboe, but not good for the voice. It is found a LOT of times with some broadway singers who try to force that unnatural vibrato. Sometimes you can tell by ear if someone is doing that because it will sound contrived and mechanical with too much of a percussive undulation... I am a firm believer that with practice we can all gain "control" over our instrument and learn how to manipulate it to do what we want.. It just takes time to retrain the voice when you are so used to doing something one certain way.

vibrato is mostly having to do with the tension you have in your throat and your ability to manipulate that tension. I liken healthy vibrato to holding a can of soda with a relaxed hand. You still need some amount of control, so you can't be too relaxed.. when you totally let go of all control, then you can end up with pitch problems and warble. You still need to have control of your voice

Author:	tigger [ Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Syberchickie, question for you
Remember a few days ago you were talking about various singing stuff, and you said something about it's possible to tell fake vibrato from natural cuz the fake one doesn't sound good or something. Can only an expert do that, or anyone?

Author:	Gilly [ Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:
Heck, some "Real" vibrattos sound bad. My husband hates that sound of my mine. And there are singers, like, stevie nicks, or... natalie merchant that have different sounding vibrattos (quite fast) that I think make them sound unique, and I enjoy, but justy HATES it. And, heck, they aren't fake:) Ok, now waiting on syber"chickie":)

Author:	tigger [ Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:
That is a good point, G....didn't think about that.

Author:	Guest [ Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:
Toby Keith uses a lot of Vibratto when he sings as well... I'm not sure if he fakes it or just controls it better on some songs than others... It's kind of annoying on some of his earlier songs.

Author:	Tigrr27 [ Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:
yeah some of his stuff sounds like he is driving his truck over railroad tracks while singing... vibrato is very loud and pronounced... but he knows how to use it very strongly so it works for him and his style of singing... - tig

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Author:	Crystal [ Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:
yup... I agree... Toby's vibrato is VERY pronounced, but it SOO suits his style... I like it... and I usually HATE vibrato... dunno why... I guess I haven't been hearing enough "good" vibrato

Author:	Atomic [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:03 am ]
Post subject:
The most annoying vibrato for me is Belinda Carlisle... I can't hear her without thinking "Larry the Lamb".........

Author:	Lee [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:51 am ]
Post subject:
well...i have a confession....i cant do that vibrato thing....so i have to rub my finger up and down very fast on my throat to do it......wish i could do it without having to do that...cos not only does my throat hurt after singing...i also get arm ache.....it sucks...

Author:	dumbdrums [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:49 am ]
Post subject:
ItS EeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEaSy LeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeeee !!!!!!!! hehehe

Author:	JazzyBaggz [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:01 am ]
Post subject:
Good Mornin' y'all... Hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts to this thread. I actually have a few minutes this morning before I have to leave and this topic caught my attention. I hope Phil doesn't mind me linking you to a little article I came across that specifically talks about vibrato and some of the different kinds of problems that arise with it... VIBRATO ARTICLE As you can see, vibrato is mostly having to do with the tension you have in your throat and your ability to manipulate that tension. I liken healthy vibrato to holding a can of soda with a relaxed hand. You still need some amount of control, so you can't be too relaxed.. when you totally let go of all control, then you can end up with pitch problems and warble. You still need to have control of your voice, BUT withOUT pressure. Ie, holding the can with just enough control that it does not fall, but without "squeezing" it or having tension in your hands. When you hold your larnyx (voice box) securly in place, that is how a "straight tone" is produced. There is a big debate in the vocal world over whether or not vibrato or straight tone is the way to go. You can see that in this article, they seem to put down "straight - toned" singing as being unacceptable and unhealthy for your voice. Some people will agree with this, some do not. I for one believe that IF straight tone is done in a supported and non-pushed way, it can be just as healthy a way of singing as natural vibrato. The problem comes when people push from the throat instead of keeping those abs rock solid and letting them do the work regulating the air flow. I see vibrato as a way to "color" your sound, and once you have good control over your voice, you can use it in varying degrees to get whatever effect you desire whether it be a shimmery vibrato that only comes at the end of a note as in jazz, a full bodied free and open vibrato used in opera, or a pure straight tone that can be so ethereal and pure and is perfect for close harmonies such as in barbershop or jazz choir. It's like the different colors on a painter's palatte.. your bag of tricks.. the more you have, the more varied and interesting you can make your singing. It would be quite boring if paintings were only in black and white or one color. Just be wary that you are producing whatever effect you are going for in a healthy manner. If it hurts or you get tired quickly, chances are that you are either putting too much or too little pressure on the larnyx, or you are not supporting the sound correctly. If I get a chance, I may put up a sound file demonstrating different techniques both good and bad.. Elisha

Author:	syberchick70 [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Syberchickie, question for you
tigger wrote: Remember a few days ago you were talking about various singing stuff, and you said something about it's possible to tell fake vibrato from natural cuz the fake one doesn't sound good or something. Can only an expert do that, or anyone? Hi Tig Actually, I believe I was saying that it's easy to tell (by listening) if someone is 'using their diaphragm' (err... hubby has corrected my spelling on that) or not. I can't really tell if someone is 'forcing' a vibrato or not, and there's such a fine line between 'faking' and 'forcing' that sometimes it's hard to tell even if you're watching the person (unless they're using their fingers like Beatles says he does... !! Not picking on you Beatles.. I couldn't even tell heheheh). It's just that sometimes a vibrato sounds really weird, and THEN I suspect the person might be faking it. I've been told there are two ways to do a vibrato (not counting Beatles' way heheh), either in the throat, or using the diaphragm. Vibrato occurs 'naturally' (in my experience) when the throat is relaxed and a note is sustained. A guy we used to work with in our band, used to tell me that he did his vibrato 'from his gut' (diaphragm) and although I can picture how that would work, it seems awkward to me. As everyone else was saying, some people 'naturally' have very fast, or very slow vibratos. Of course, the faster the vibrato, the higher pitch it is (Dolly Parton, for example, has a very high, fast vibrato). When I find vibrato to be 'annoying', is when it noticeably fluctuates in speed, you hear it on EVERY note, or it's too loud. You kind of get a 'goat' effect, or... remember 'ghost girl' from American Idol 3? But to me, that comes from lack of control, in particular, variations of the amount of tension of the throat (which should be relaxed) during the vibrato. Anyway.. that's what I have to say on the subject. heheh

Author:	mezza [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:00 am ]
Post subject:
I have a natural vibrato...cant control it one bit...it has a mind of its own...I went to singing class very early one in my life and was told ..get a real job ... there is no songs for such a voice...so I stopped singing.. when syber critiqued my second song..she mentioned my vibrato like it was soft and natural sounding... as if I had worked in my song through cool edit....not so... very natural...and if I relax it...its worse...hence I have no problem singing dolly songs...cept they are to darn high... Just my 2 cents worth.. ps...many a time I have been asked if I sit on a vibrato to sing my songs...people have so little tact now days..

Author:	JazzyBaggz [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:34 am ]
Post subject:
diaphramatic vibrato is actually quite unnatural and can be very damaging to the voice as it puts a lot of pressure on the chords. If you don't know what diaphramatic vibrato is, it's pulsing using your tummy to create a "fake" vibrato. This vibrato is acceptable on some instruments like oboe, but not good for the voice. It is found a LOT of times with some broadway singers who try to force that unnatural vibrato. Sometimes you can tell by ear if someone is doing that because it will sound contrived and mechanical with too much of a percussive undulation... I am a firm believer that with practice we can all gain "control" over our instrument and learn how to manipulate it to do what we want.. It just takes time to retrain the voice when you are so used to doing something one certain way. Now off I go to sew my costume for Amahl and the Night Visitors Elisha

Author:	Luly [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:39 am ]
Post subject:
What's vibrato??

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Author:	Lee [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:44 am ]
Post subject:
JAZZYBAGZZ WROTE: I am a firm believer that with practice we can all gain "control" over our instrument and learn how to manipulate it to do what we want.. i have no control over my instrument...in fact its quite scary sometimes....i never know what its going to do next

Author:	HEADS TOGETHER [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:52 am ]
Post subject:
Love you Luly, Love you Beatle!!!

Author:	syberchick70 [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:06 am ]
Post subject:
JazzyBaggz wrote: Good Mornin' y'all... Hope you don't mind me adding my thoughts to this thread. I actually have a few minutes this morning before I have to leave and this topic caught my attention. I hope Phil doesn't mind me linking you to a little article I came across that specifically talks about vibrato and some of the different kinds of problems that arise with it... VIBRATO ARTICLE As you can see, vibrato is mostly having to do with the tension you have in your throat and your ability to manipulate that tension. I liken healthy vibrato to holding a can of soda with a relaxed hand. You still need some amount of control, so you can't be too relaxed.. when you totally let go of all control, then you can end up with pitch problems and warble. You still need to have control of your voice, BUT withOUT pressure. Ie, holding the can with just enough control that it does not fall, but without "squeezing" it or having tension in your hands. When you hold your larnyx (voice box) securly in place, that is how a "straight tone" is produced. There is a big debate in the vocal world over whether or not vibrato or straight tone is the way to go. You can see that in this article, they seem to put down "straight - toned" singing as being unacceptable and unhealthy for your voice. Some people will agree with this, some do not. I for one believe that IF straight tone is done in a supported and non-pushed way, it can be just as healthy a way of singing as natural vibrato. The problem comes when people push from the throat instead of keeping those abs rock solid and letting them do the work regulating the air flow. I see vibrato as a way to "color" your sound, and once you have good control over your voice, you can use it in varying degrees to get whatever effect you desire whether it be a shimmery vibrato that only comes at the end of a note as in jazz, a full bodied free and open vibrato used in opera, or a pure straight tone that can be so ethereal and pure and is perfect for close harmonies such as in barbershop or jazz choir. It's like the different colors on a painter's palatte.. your bag of tricks.. the more you have, the more varied and interesting you can make your singing. It would be quite boring if paintings were only in black and white or one color. Just be wary that you are producing whatever effect you are going for in a healthy manner. If it hurts or you get tired quickly, chances are that you are either putting too much or too little pressure on the larnyx, or you are not supporting the sound correctly. If I get a chance, I may put up a sound file demonstrating different techniques both good and bad.. Elisha Wow... GREAT post Jazzy You're teaching me a few things too!! Now see, I was close... but I didn't have all the details. Great addition and thanks so much! Now I'm gonna go read the article. =-D

Author:	syberchick70 [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:11 am ]
Post subject:
mezza wrote: when syber critiqued my second song..she mentioned my vibrato like it was soft and natural sounding... as if I had worked in my song through cool edit....not so... very natural...and if I relax it...its worse...hence I have no problem singing dolly songs...cept they are to darn high... ! I hope you didn't think I was saying something negative!! You must have had good 'control' of your vibrato in that sub, and I noticed! It didn't sound out of place. From what Jazzy just said, it makes sense. Relaxing the throat TOO much would cause you to lose control. Anyway, I must have liked the sub, so good job. mezza wrote: ps...many a time I have been asked if I sit on a vibrato to sing my songs...people have so little tact now days.. ROTFL... Oh my... I think that would get someone a beer bottle thrown at them if said to me!! hehehe

Author:	syberchick70 [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:13 am ]
Post subject:
JazzyBaggz wrote: diaphramatic vibrato is actually quite unnatural and can be very damaging to the voice as it puts a lot of pressure on the chords. If you don't know what diaphramatic vibrato is, it's pulsing using your tummy to create a "fake" vibrato. This vibrato is acceptable on some instruments like oboe, but not good for the voice. It is found a LOT of times with some broadway singers who try to force that unnatural vibrato. Sometimes you can tell by ear if someone is doing that because it will sound contrived and mechanical with too much of a percussive undulation... I am a firm believer that with practice we can all gain "control" over our instrument and learn how to manipulate it to do what we want.. It just takes time to retrain the voice when you are so used to doing something one certain way. Ahh... now see, I knew it wasn't good. Thanks for the info Jazzy!

Author:	Gilly [ Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:47 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: vibrato is mostly having to do with the tension you have in your throat and your ability to manipulate that tension. I liken healthy vibrato to holding a can of soda with a relaxed hand. You still need some amount of control, so you can't be too relaxed.. when you totally let go of all control, then you can end up with pitch problems and warble. You still need to have control of your voice Makes sense....seeing as how, if I am really nervous, and am asked to sing in front of someone... my voice (and my vibratto) is completely different. Heck, i just don't have one. But, when i am completely alone and singing at home, I have a nice pretty sounding one. But, you get someone else (which includes the fact that my neighbors can hear me) and I get tense, and completely lack one at all. There is no way I can sing in my normal style (as when I am comfortable) and retain my pitch. hey, probably why I don't sing in public... well, that and the fact i would pee myself. yes, I know, i am a nut. BUT, I never knew exactly WHAT vibrato was, until I joined dts ages ago, and jazzy and.. i think, heather explained it to me. (Strangely, even though I knew how to accomplish it with my horns.) Just, my voice elludes me. My husband hates vibratto, and prefers straight toned singing. When I was younger, I just sang, and boom, there was vibratto. Not forced, because... well, i didn't know there was suPPOSEd to be that sound. Anyways, continueing.... my husband likens MY vibratto to a pretty goat. ok, done here. No need to comment on my rambling:)