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The previous venue that I had in the next town now wants me back. Seems he has learned his lesson as I had predicted. The word I've been getting consistenly since I left is that his bar has been dead, as it was last night - what should have been his busiest night of the year!
This is the owner that is from another culture that I have discussed in other threads.
He called my daughter over last night, when she bar-hopped into his place. He told her wants me on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
I'm willing to negotiate, but I have a few things I want from him.
First off, Tuesdays are out. I have other obligations on Tuesdays and I will NOT change it for anything. Last time, he seemed to think he was doing me a favour by "letting" me host on Mondays instead. I also don't WANT to do a second night and I think right now, the town will not support it anyway. When I was doing it before, it was a very hard climb to build it up to a decent level, but it wasn't anything outstanding like my Thursdays.
Second, I want a very simple contract signed by us both that spells out that I am guaranteed to have 6 months' work (And he is guaranteed to have a show for 6 months). I also want it in the contract that I reserve the right to send in a substitute host if and when it's necessary and that if I am ill and cannot find a replacement, that I will not lose my gig for it. Last time, he was CHOKED when I entered the hospital for emergency surgery and demanded that I not have it so he could have a show. He was also choked about 5 months later when I suggested that I was going to send in a sub so I could go away for a week to visit family.
And last, but not least, my price has gone up. I will be asking for $250.00 per night. Last time I had got him to raise from $150 to $175 with a fair bit of difficulty, but I DID get it. I felt that I had proven my worth and deserved it. When he let me go 2 months ago, I decided at that time that when he called me to come back, my price would definitely be at that level. That is what I get from the pub down the street from me and they are happy to pay it. I'm worth it and I know it, and now he knows it too. But he IS cheap.
He tried to replace me with a guy who hosted an acoustic "jam" for drinks. Funny thing is, the guy doesn't drink much. He wanted "exposure". It flopped big time and the bar died out rather quickly. My hubby (bless his heart), who owns a music store and is a musician himself gave him a talking to about lowering the value of entertainment etc, etc. It's all been discussed elsewhere.
Anyway, if any of you can think of any good negotiating tactics, please let me know. I will not vary on any of the terms, except the price. I would be willing to go down to $225.00, but only if necessary, and only if all other conditions are met.
Thanks in advance for your help, guys!
Cheers!

My strategy is to lay out the terms and then let them do the talking. Last time I had a similar situation I laid out what it would take for me to do a show. We negotiated and he tried talking it down. He maneuvered the conversation to the "It would be nice.." if I took less money, worked more nights than I outlined and didn't take simple no for an answer. So I agree with him, said that would all be real nice and he stuck out his hand and said we're agreed. I said "Sure, if the agreement is this.." and I outlined all my original points. I didn't get the gig and walked away wondering if holding the line was the right thing.

3 weeks later he asked me to come by and we went through it all again. He agreed to all my points this time even my $25 increase for the night in question because I'd have to break an engagement further down the line. If the owner is asking for you back make sure you have fair but reasonable terms to stick with and don't waiver for it. There's always another gig to play even if it's just competition for the gig you were just offered.

Negotiating from a position of strength always gives you the upper hand. The fact is his revenue plunged when you weren't there. But the bar owner also has to have his objectives met.

If he wants someone 2 nights a week, and you are only able to work 1, understand that in itself might be a deal-breaker. What I would suggest is that you agree to take on his Tuesday night show, but only if you're able to put another host in there. You would continue to manage the relationship meaning all payments are made to YOU and then you pay your host. This way he can still have the 2 nights and only have to deal with one company.

That way you can tell him $400 for both nights...you take $250 for Thursday and give $150 to your Tuesday host.

If he's only interested in you personally hosting, then you can start negotiating the other points. Print them out on a piece of paper (not a contract, just a list of these items) and go through them one by one. That way there's no misunderstanding with you trying to verbally convey these points to him - especially if English isn't his first language.

In terms of sending a substitute host you should let him know it would only be "in case of emergency" and let him know that your plans are to be there every week.

Have him sign a contract for the total amount (weekly rate X 26 weeks) and show the full dollar amount on the contract.

Let us know how it goes!

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Thanks for the suggestions, Dan.
Unfortunately, Tuesdays won't work. I am having trouble finding a sub host for when and if I am ever sick again and also for holidays that we may take later in the year. (Why don't people want to work anymore?)
I also really don't want to sub out my show on a regular basis. I have big issues with having my gear out with someone else as my personal computer is involved. It's my "baby"! If I am sick, it can't be avoided, but it still makes me nervous.
Also, as stated above, I don't think it can be supported properly and that, for me, would mean that the owner would have cause to complain to me and claim I'm not holding my end up as far as bringing in the crowd.
So, subbing out the Tuesdays are not an option for me.
As for whether it's a deal breaker, then so be it. I would like the gig back, but only because I miss my crowd from that venue and I know they miss me, but it's not worth it to me to bend on the other terms.
I am adamant to not to do another night at that venue in that town at this point in time. It just can't be supported properly.

I wouldn't presume to post what's "best". However, I'm never shy about posting my thoughts:


You are probably right about 2 nights in the same venue. I will no longer do it because I found that the two nights seem to "vampire" each other. Why not have 1 a**kicker instead?

A sub is another thing altogether. It's YOU he wants there, because YOU were successful. I understand that you want the ability to send one in an emergency. The thing is, he's worried that you might take advantage and send a sub when you feel like it. I HAVE seen this happen. A very good host with a strong following began concentrating on private events. The result was that he sent a sub more and more often, and the sub wasn't up to par. Killied the show- and his gig.

You might think about a way to reassure him that this won't happen.

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" Disc based and loving it..."

Sub issue is a tough one - I left a very, very successful show after two years because they kept telling me that they had hired me "for my talent" and that is what they were paying me for. Last straw was when they shorted me when I had to have a sub come in emergently.

The trick is providing a sub that is of similar caliber to yourself....never an easy task. I don't work both weekend nights anymore for a number of reasons but one was that I was tired of missing events that the "real people" went to ... seems like two years is maximum for me for working Fri AND Sat nights. Don't wanna do it anymore.

Two nights in the same place, however, is something I've managed to do successfully in the past, even in a small town. I never experienced the "vampire" issue - the hard core singers would show up both nights, and it seemed that there was a different crowd the second night. With the work week now anything but Monday to Friday, a lot of people have their Friday on Sundays, etc., etc. In some towns it would probably not work and you're wise to ease into the situation. I am starting a mid-week show this coming week and the owner mentioned the possibility of a second night - we will have to discuss this long and hard before I agree to that.

I think you should have some clause in there regarding the cancellation of a show (or a show being cut short) on any given night, and what your compensation should be in that situation. Likewise with requests that you start your show later due to a sporting event on TV or something else like that (including when you would/should end the show).

Another thing is having something where the Owner/Management/Staff can NOT dictate who can or can not sing (unless, of course, the person is unruly, and is about to be shown to the exit). Also, they can NOT dictate who sings next. YOU run the show, thus, YOU control the rotation.

I have a contract which I have never used (but I believe it is well written). Aside from that, in my area, most would not sign a contract anyway. If you would like to see it, drop me a line at cueball070358 at aol dot com.

It sounds to me like you have thought this out well. If I were in your shoes, which you were involved with my post on difficult bar owners, I would hold the line on one night and not budge on price. I know the feeling of missing your crowd, believe me I miss mine now as I don't currently have a gig, but it sounds like this guy has seen the light, and came to realize that you brought in the money. As far as using a sub, I have a sub that I trained to work the way I work, I was very lucky to find someone that can be himself yet run a show like I do, plus he has been a regular with me for many years, so the crowd was familar with him. That may be a option for you to find someone that is a regular that may want to host part time. I always include that a sub may be used, whether it's my wife, who is a competent host, or my employee. As I do many other types of events, dances, weddings, etc.
I am set up as a entertainment company, and I make it very clear to bar owners that while the vast majority of the time I am the one working the event, they are hiring my company, so they will always get a employee of my company be it me, or another member of the crew. I agree that a contract or at least a written agreement that will be signed is a good idea with this guy, considering past events.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Diafel

My business partner, recently reviewed in his mind, over and over, what he would be demanding from an establishment that just recently let him go but then wanted to rehire him.

Suffice it to say that the "negotiations" went nothing like he had expected, though all ended well, nonetheless.

Being that you have solidified in your mind what you require, I am confused as to what advice you expect from us? My advice, if you're really interested, is to stay away from the miserable SOB. From what you described he is not the type of person I would ever want to be involved with. You had an medical priority and he was upset because you took care of it? Come on! This person, based upon your description, is a miserable human being. Why would you ever want to be associated with him again? You must ask yourself, honestly, what is the upside for you? IMHO, you'll soon be sorry that you ever returned to his establishment. And, the first time he has a bad night's take will probably be when you will start to rue your decision of going back!


PS: We have local venues that have karaoke twice a week with two different KJ's. It's actually better for everyone, as Joe C implied, because it's less likely that the same KJ will have a large enough "following" to get a substantial number of people to attend the same venue more than once a week. Two KJ's, with two separate "followings" would have a better shot at maximizing attendance!

You've asked for advice about negotiation but it doesn't seem that you're ready to negotiate.

I can't see the idea of a six month contract unless you are willing to guarantee the owner a net profit each night in excess of the cost of your show that is directly due to your show. What if you're good for one month and suck for five? Then there is the matter of maybe you'll show up and maybe a sub does. The KJ is at least (and I think more) important than the PA to the success of the show. Would it be reasonable to play the first gig with your normal setup and there after show up with a Mr. Microphone?

If you actually want advice about negotiation here goes:
1. Understand all sides of the issue.
2. Ask for more than you will actually take and compromise.
3. Be prepared to walk away.
4. At the end of a successful negotiation both sides will think they've won.

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Okay, who took my pants?

You're right, I guess. Maybe the question should have been "How do I get what I want?".
At any rate, your advice is solid. Thank you.
As for working with the "SOB". I can handle it. As I said he's from another culture that tends to not value individual life so much. Not his fault, it was the way he was raised.
I have no problem working within his "cultural handicap", even if it does p*$$ me off from time to time.
I also would like the regular money coming in, but it's more important to get my terms than a regular paycheque.
As for subbing out on a regular basis because I may find it easier, it simply won'y happen. I work to earn money for MYSELF not to pay someone else. Plus the whole point is to get to see me regulars again. I can't do that if I'm sending someone else, now can I?
I know he realizes that I will not be sending in a sub on a regular basis. He's just being unreasonable. The hospital incident shows that clearly.
As for the other clauses in the contract, I don't need them, nor do I want them. I want to keep it very simple as English is not his first language and I want to get him to sign it. Too many little things, and he will shy away.
I guess what I'm really asking is how to get him to si9gn and agree to it all.
Thanks for all the great suggestions and comments, guys!

What if he doesn't agree to price? I think you've already decided you'd walk. Stick to it. If anything start your price $25 higher than you want, so you can say you at least came down a little.

What if he says Mondays and Thursdays avoiding the troublesome Tuesday? But you say you don't think the area will support it. If you're willing and can do 2 nights, may I suggest negotiating, starting with one night and adding another after you've established a solid crowd. Explain to him you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot by starting with 2 nights, but are willing to add on another night once you are established.

I work in the same venue 3 nights a week and know others who do more than one night. I started with Fridays, built my crowd. Then added every other Saturday. When that did well I was asked to do every Saturday and Wed. It took Wed a while to catch on, but it did. a lot of my regulars come at least 2 nights a week sometimes 3. I don't agree more than one night won't work. You just have to build up to it. You know your area better than us though. I'd say you can always try it down the road and see it it works. Tell the owner you want it to work as much as he does. But you have to go about it keeping in mind a crowd has to be well established before stretching it out. Your working with him on this, so he makes money. If you can get it in his head you are trying to help him make money and not to rush things, so it works to his benefit.

The other thing that might give you trouble is the contract. Is he going to be willing to sign one? He may agree to some terms in writing, but not all. I would try to put the most important things like pay and 6 months guarrenteed work in the contract.

If you can at least get him to sign an agreement that may not be legally binding, but will give you back up if you ever have a disagreement about what was discussed, you will have something to refer to. This way he can't dispute your conversation. Most people are willing to sign an agreement even though they won't sign a contract.

Good luck girl !

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Your new demands wont work. Not becuase he is CHEAP but becuase he HAS A HUGE EGO!! Thats what all the trouble is REALLY all about. And he wont be able to HUMBLE himself to give in and LIVE with your new demands. Just dump this guy completely. The way he treated u about the the vacation and surgery ought to be reason enough. And that he simply CANT BE TRUSTED. Its all about personal charactrer and integrity. And THAT has NOTHING TO DO with how he was raised or where he might have come from.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

From all these threads about bar owners they are the bad guys, need to be negotiated with and in general are there to make your gig miserable. If they have had a bar open for years they are not dumb and have heard every sales pitch in the book.

The following comments are from many years of experience which included electronic repair service, installations (antenna, broadcast, intercom, public address, and music sound systems). They also are based upon scouting, bidding and selling contracts.I have also been in direct selling.

A karaoke consult involves very little selling or negotiating. It is more PR and setting a foundation with owner and staff before the first setup and constant weekly
communication.

Before approaching an owner or the food and beverage manager in a motel or hotel I have done the following. Researched the history and know if they have had karaoke before, if so why didnt it work. I know if the owner has other businesses and how successful they are. I have talked to regulars that know staff and get a general feeling about the place.

The hardest selling part is this. You have to sell yourself in the first 5 seconds, get their trust and confidence. As an outside TV repair tech I could write a book on this subject. During my initial contacts I am assessing the owner more than he is me. I get them relaxed and have a general conversation about their goals and see if they have the confidence and positive attitude to make it work. During the process I get their knowledge and general impressions of karaoke and DJ. These discussions tell him my rules and which formats I can provide. They also set my parameters which I cannot vary from. By this time if we are not in agreement I smile shake his hand and respectfully end the interview. Notice there has been nothing said about system, selection or any particulars. These are minor and most owners with a good overall goals dont see them as a make or break.

Also I find out if he is trying to establish a certain type of clientelle (in which case I boogie) or has the capability to go with the flow and is able to assess what the crowd wants and change as needed. I am able to predict how well the working future relationship with him and staff will be.

By this time you are friends and then are able to evaluate whether you click or not. THEN the question of price, bar tab and hours are discussed. After that small adjustments are made which includes sacrifice on both sides are made as needed.

It is not a door to door type selling experience it is preparation and PR. There are many other suggestions I should make but they are beyond the scope of a short thread but hopefully this will give newbies a different aspect about securing gigs.

EDIT Above is as if I would go into a strange town All of my gigs were obtained with known owners and knowledge of my capabilities.

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Unfortunately, none of what you have suggested will work in my situation as the owner and I already have a history, as stated above. At any rate, I tend to diagree with your blanket statement, "A karaoke consult involves very little selling or negotiating."
Each situation is unique, in, and of, itself.
There is plenty to negotiate: price, rotation, hours, off- color songs, etc, etc.
But thank you anyway.

My response is also in another thread (where you re-posted this)....





Very Interesting....

My experience has not quite been the way you outline it here. Here's mine (from several years ago, when I was actively trying to find gigs)... I would walk into a Bar and ask if the Owner or Manager is around. If they are not present, then I would politely ask the Bartender if he/she could give my business card to them (and I would try to come back again at some later time or another day). If they are there, then I would ask if they would be interested in having Karaoke there. Now, without any further discussion, the the first thing that has come out of their mouth is, "How much do you charge?".

OK... That's my 1st 5 seconds. Based on your outline above, what was I doing wrong? Your outline has you coming in to offer your services, and shooting the breeze with them for 5 or 10 minutes before price even comes into the equation.

For whatever it's worth, and considering others have said the same as I have, I will repeat myself. No good will come out of renewing this relationship. You can excuse his actions by referring to cultural differences, but such differences are no excuse for acting less than human

Thank you, eric and others for your thoughts. However, I didn't ask to be persuaded not to renew the gig. In short, I asked how I could get my demands met.

Diafel you know this guy well. I'd say play it by ear when you meet with him. Play to his ego. Making him think his ideas are great, but then bend them to what you want. He wants 2 nights a week. Tell him that is a great idea, but this is how you can make it work so he can make the most money out of it. You'll start with doing Thurdays only, building him a crowd and down the road you can add that other night. Starting with both in your experience will give him 2 poor nights instead of one great night. If you wait to add the second night you are more likely to end up with the crowds you want for both nights, but starting with 2 nights would be rushing into failure. But of course you'll want to be excited about HIS idea of 2 nights.

I'd say getting your way with the contract of 6 months will be a hurdle. Make him think this is standard business practice for you. It isn't just him, but every gig you take has to abide. You are a business and those are your stead fast rules or you wouldn't be able to stay in business. Just like he has to sign a contract with his vendors. You too need a contract to run properly.

I still think price is a deal breaker for you. Again making him feel special is key. Tell him your prices are what they are and that you are only giving him that price because you've worked for him before. I still think hiking your price a bit so you can come down a little is a good idea. Then you can say that is the bottom line. It isn't worth it for you to go any lower. You've already quoted prices you wouldn't give anyone else.

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When is your meeting with him? I'm dying to hear how things went.

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