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Should this customer be allowed to sing?????????
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Author:  Tammy Gail [ Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Should this customer be allowed to sing?????????
I have a gig here in New Port Richey every Sunday evening that I enjoy doing but have a problem ....

In the past month, I've had a "follower" that has showed up at two previous gigs in 2 other establishments where I was doing Karaoke for these businesses....the customer has started a fight with an employee and with myself at these past 2 places and the last one resulted in him being thrown out of the bar we were at by the owners...this guy is just beligerant and out of control and "fighting" seems to be his answer to everything.

Well this past sunday night at the gig I do, he shows up, and I let it be known to him (in a private conversation) that he is NOT to sing using Suncoast Entertainment's equipment because of his previous behavior at our other shows - Well it seems that the bar owner disagrees with me, and says that because it didn't happen in his bar, that he should be allowed to sing until he causes a problem in his bar - that he is paying me to allow customers to sing - to a point, I can understand his reasoning, but on the other hand, do I give this guy the right to my equipment ? Do I allow him to sing though he's showed agressive behavior towards me and another employee on 2 occasions???? His reasonings are personal, he and I used to date on occasion, and whenever I went back to my old boyfriend, he obviously flipped his lid....ignorance on his part I know - but do I risk him throwing a hissy fit one night and damaging 6 grand worth of equipment??
I told the bar owner that he was banned from singing with my company, and that I'd rather give up the lousy paying job than to let him sing using my equipment again...and I would....just kinda looking to see what everyone elses thought is on this subject...thanks a bunch!
Tammy Gail
www.suncoastentertainment.net
Author:  kojak [ Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Tammy,
This belongs on the disscussion forum, however, since you're allready here, here's my take on the subject:

It your "follower" is really that big of a pain, get a restrainging order, and don't tell the owner of the bar where you have your Sunday night gig.
If this doesn't shut him down, and he shows up at your Sunday night show, call the fuzz and let them deal with him.

If you can use a gentler, more tackfull means of control, do that first.
Don't be mean sprited.

If this results in your losing the gig, so be it.
Remember, you're a private bussiness owner, NOT an employee!

If you have a restrainging order against someone, anyone, for any reason, it's not any of the bar owner's bussiness.

The fact that the bar owner is unwilling to support you is reason enough to show him your middle finger.
Don't feel guilty about offending his, (the bar owner's), sensitivitys, he's not concerned about yours.

Good Luck!
Kojak
Author:  pkircher [ Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've had problem customers follow me around before and I insist that the bar staff remove them from the establishment even if they've never cause a problem in that particular venue. I once had a manager refuse to do so. I then announced to the crowd that I would be ending karaoke early that night and packed it up and went home. All of the karaoke patrons quickly left the bar and they did practically zero business that night. The next day the owner called me and apologized for his manager not backing me up.

Now don't get me wrong this could have very easily gone the opposite direction and I could have lost the gig, but last time this customer was at one of my shows he damaged my $300 wireless mic and the gig was only $200 a night do the math, I'd rather lose the gig.

I guess what I'm saying is I think that the lack of support from the staff is enough to say goodbye. You can always get another gig.
Author:  knightshow [ Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:46 am ]
Post subject: 
yep.

this is a customer that you know personally. I would insist that the bar owner work with you on this... OR say if he starts a fight, that the owner is now responsible for ANY damage to your equipment... and for the loss of customers he'll eventually have thanks to mr. belligerant.

other than that, it's his bar. He can do what he wants. But if he wants to disregard warnings, then it's his problem, not yours!
Author:  karaokemeister [ Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:41 am ]
Post subject: 
I can understand his not wanting to throw out someone that's a paying customer because he hasn't had a problem with them - but you can say that it's your equipment and that he won't sing. You're paid to provide a service but your rules are your rules.

I'd consider doing exactly what pkircher did. Start your show - refuse to let <radio edit> sing. Owner says let him sing say 'no'. If he insists I'd cancel the show right then - pack up and go home. Or hand him a letter to sign saying that he's responsible for any damage that <radio edit> causes and if there is an altercation that he is liable for civil damages. If he ask why, say 'I told you this person has a personal grudge against me and has a history of causing problems. I've done my due diligence in refusing to let him sing. You want him to stay and sing so I'm assuming you're willing to accept responsibility for his actions.' I bet money he at least won't let him sing.

On a different note, I'd see if he's 'following' you anyplace besides just these places. If he is I'd contact the authorities - Florida has a stalking law. :twisted: If he's harassing you personally I'd file a temporary restraining order and when he shows up at the bar I'd inform the owner that his past behaviour has caused you to file for a restraining order. He can either ask him to leave, you can pack up and leave, or the police can be called creating a scene. BTW, if he tells you to leave I'd still call the police, create a scene, and insist he pay you for the night. He chose to cancel - not you. :twisted:

Just so you know - I would consider letting <radio edit> sing after a 'cooling-off' period of a couple weeks/months of no altercations. Banned for life because he was drunk and beligerent after being dumped is probably a bit harsh. If he damaged equipment or phycally struck you I'd consider banned for life a light sentence. Charged, cuffed and stuffed would be a more appropriate sentence in that case.
Author:  Tammy Gail [ Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thank you all so much for your input - it's greatly appreciated and I'm happy to know that I wasn't being "too harsh". As a business owner I always worry that I will make a bad decision, but I just felt so strongly about this one.

You all are fantastic, and btw - sorry about posting this to the wrong topic...I'm a new member and just wasn't payin attention haha :)

Talk to you all soon!
Tammy Gail
Author:  marty3 [ Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Interesting topic and some good advice from all. Something to think about for sure. In hindsight, I would say discuss the matter with the venue before banning someone (that's not already banned from there). I don't think any of the bar owners I know would readily agree to cover my equipment loss due to one of their patrons, but it certainly might give them reason to think and maybe put the person on a "probation" of some sort - behave in a non-singing capacity for while or something like that.
Author:  metalgod [ Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
Good Luck with the psycho's. I've had a couple of stalkers in my 9 years of biz. Pretty scary when it comes down to it.
Author:  knightshow [ Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
After the incident where someone popped me from the side (ambushed me from outside), the first thing I did was talk to the management and owners of the bar... I wanted them to know that despite the fact that a couple of the patrons that were involved in this, if they wanted to participate in karaoke, they needed my approval.

To date, one's not gotten it. he's an A*****e, and I won't have him at my gig. The owners were very surprised I was willing to compromise at all with a couple of others that were invovled.

Also, I think it gave them pause when the guy gave me his best shot, and all it did was p**s me off!!
Author:  timberlea [ Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:44 am ]
Post subject: 
From only what you are saying (and there are three sides to every story, yours, theirs, and the truth), and if it is true (sorry cop in me), then this "follower" is not a "follower", but rather a stalker. This is a criminal offence in most jurisdictions.

My advice is to contact your local Justice Department and discuss your options, whether police involvement/criminal charges or a civil restraining order, which if broken, becomes a criminal offence. If you do get the order, carry it with you at all times.

Until this happens, it is your equipment and ultimately you have the final say as to who gets to use it. If you believe this person may be a danger to you or your equipment, you have the right of refusal, just as a bar has the right to refuse service.

If the bar won't bar him then he can stay and listen quietly. If he starts to interfere then the security staff can bar him.

GOOD LUCK
Author:  Lonman [ Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:54 am ]
Post subject: 
It's your right not to let him sing - it's your business, not the bars. But it's the bars right to let him in or not if he hasn't caused trouble in their place as well.
I have posted in my books We reserve the right to refuse our service to anyone. Only had to use that 2 times in 13 years.
Author:  jamkaraoke [ Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Should this "customer" be allowed to sing ... If you guys use to date in the past its more than just some customer ..he obviously is following you from gig to gig.. I would tell the management of your past relatiionship and since he's not a regular there , the new venue should back you up if you're uncomfortable with him being there.... JUST MY .02
Author:  Capt Midnight [ Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
for bar karaoke, my rules are:

If a patron of yours damages gear, the bar is responsible for it, as they are the signing client on the contract. If the bar wants to recover their cost, they can then.

I have it in the front of my books, that i reserve the right to refuse singing to anybody based on sobriety, and past actions at the mic, this has nothing to do with how you sing.

I for one would be letting the bar owner know that unless he wants to pay for damaged gear, that stalker will not be singing on your gear
Author:  STTW Lisa [ Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:59 am ]
Post subject: 
<Karaoke Host hat on, STTW hat off and thrown in the corner>

Hi Tammy,

Sorry to hear you are having such a tough time.

Like others here, we (Diamond Fire) have a "reserve the right to refuse a patron" under specific circumstances. The "right to refuse" is elastic, it can be just for that night (because Bob has sunk a few too many pints and can hardly stand) or, in extreme cases, for life. It doesn't get used often but we do have two folks who are on a "bar for life" (both for violence towards other singers). If we had to we would also life-ban for deliberate damage to our equipment).

We tend to raise this at any new venues with the owners so that they understand our position and the potential pitfalls for them of not having such controls in place. We do not ask for such people to be refused access to the venue, just that the management support our stance of not allowing such people on or near the karaoke, BECAUSE we only use it if we really feel we have to (although we do "influence" towards a venue ban if we feel the person under discussion has been physically violent, is past redemption and is likely to hurt others).

If someone is not allowed to sing on our show, typically they are expected to stay well away from us, our equipment and those enjoying the Karaoke.

In your current position, if I really wanted to keep the gig, I'd probably have a meet up with the owner, explain the full situation. I'd be looking to get the owner to agree and honour my wishes that the person stays barred off karaoke. If I felt the need to compromise, it would go along the lines of .... okay he can sing IF the owner will take full financial responsibility for any damage to equipment and that his presence be treated as an "on alert" (potential problem) situation when this person is at the venue.

Sometimes compromise is necessary but if your gut feeling is that this is just a trouble bomb waiting to explode, you're right to be doing whatever you can to protect yourself. your equipment and your singers.

In your situation, with the person following you around and causing problems, I would be getting the police involved (so that he gets on their radar) and keep proprietors in the information loop as a business courtesy.

Lisa
Author:  Melly [ Wed Sep 29, 2004 3:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Man......i realize how lucky i am in the venues i work in. I have had this happen...and the places i work for have this motto: THEY run the BAR....i RUN karaoke. If i don't want to let someone sing for ANY reason...I don't have to. they back me 100%.

I've had this happen. I went to the Sherriff....and filed. Since SHE was kicked out of 3 places.....where I was appearing.....she HAS not EVER been let in while we have karaoke. It's been 3 years now.


I say go talk to the law.....this is scary. Equipment CAN BE replaced.....You on the other hand CANNOT!!! Better to be safe than sorry.
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