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High Microphone Level
https://mail.karaokescene.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11256		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  mckyj57 [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  High Microphone Level
I sometimes run into a host who keeps their microphone gain quite high, to the point where I have to hold the mic 8 inches or more away from my mouth. I am much more comfortable with it quite a bit closer. I do have sort of a big voice, but I am a deep baritone which seems to make holding the microphone closer more important.

What are the considerations with mic placement, and where do you all try to get people to hold the mic?
Author:  Jian [ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
2 inches from the lips is about the best. If its a personal mic, I go in nearer. At that distance I can go nearer by one inch to double my vol at the low part of the song and when singing the loud part I just move the mic 2 inches a way from the normal postition and that will cut the vol by 1/2.

And if the level is too high I signal the KJ to lower it......
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Closer the better as long as they aren't eating it.  High gain to where you need to hold it 8 inches is a great recipe for feedback.
Author:  Karen K [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Agree, Lonman. Amazing the number of people running boards who don't understand unity and gain. I had a substitute who worked for me who would try and use faders for mic volume. I knew instantly when I walked in that she had moved the faders and abandoned gain.

I went and listened to a friend's band last weekend and glanced at the board because no one was sitting at it, and the female voc. was being completely drowned out by the lead guitar. Her highs, mids, and lows were set at 8:00 (????).... Found out they had NEVER had a sound person at their shows...well guess who was asked to step in? I didn't mind but looking at the board, it became apparent very quickly that the sound board was secondary to them.  The guy singer, who really had NO clue how to use a mic, was standing between the full size JBL monitor on the floor and the cymbals and snare. I have NO idea why he felt like he needed to be behind the floor monitor - he had an in-ear in place! He kept feeding back terribly.  His fader was low, gain was at 3:00 (= feedback).  I eventually moved all the faders up and gain down and PRESTO! Mix! However, he INSISTED that I turn him UP...and he'd say he was "controlling" the mic by holding it 5-6 inches from his mouth...and he kept feeding back. I tried to explain to him the whole issue of feedback and mic distance...ARGGG.... With the purchase of most boards, there is a little "get started" guide that explains unity and gain but I don't think anyone pays any attention to that.

Mic close, gain down, no feedback!
Author:  jamkaraoke [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
I just LOVE the ULTRA COOL SINGER who has to CUP the microphone in his hand when he sings and wonders why he sound like MUD
Author:  Dr Fred [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Quote:
I sometimes run into a host who keeps their microphone gain quite high, to the point where I have to hold the mic 8 inches or more away from my mouth.


I figure that is just a lazy host. Sure ideally we could train the singers so that mic adjustment is not needed, but realistically the host has to adjust the volume for the singers.

The people that know how to use a mic should not have to adjust for the people who don't.

I already know about how much adjustment many of my regulars need after just a month of shows. It seems that I have to change it by a few db for nearly every singer +/- to make it sound right. On the extremes it would appear that the range is over 20 db from a loud singer who knows how to hold a mic to a quiet singer with poor technique. Minor changes of a +/- 2-3 db are often needed as well.

Sure some times the best way to control an over loud or quiet singer is to adjust the backing levels but beyond the extremes the mic gain seems the easiest way to go.

As for live bands the mix is often harder than karaoke. Nearly all of the low quality pop/rock bands that never make it dont understand the balance between vocals and insturments. It seems a simple thing, but somehow the majority of the garage bands dont get it.  I suspect that it is often a battle of egos where the different members dont realize that more volume of their track(s) is not always better. [/quote]
Author:  supercharged [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
yeah mixing a band is alot more difficult! when I was trained my friend who was teaching me showed me how he solos every track and sets gain so that the DB goes to like 3 below the red on peak input. you dont even have to be able to listen, this can be done with the mains off. set your monitor mixes (now every time you mess with gain you get the band mad) then set the faders to unity and the mix will be close, you will have plenty of headroom for solos and can easly tune to get a really good mix. It might not be text book, but it works and its simple..also the venue doesnt have a fit about the band doing"sound check" for an hour (ive seen it)

  I do pretty much the same with karaoke, but I should learn to use gain more in karaoke so I turn up both the monitor and the main at the same time..I normaly set the singers mics as loud as is safe in the monitor anyways but the problem with that is some think theyre singing louder than they are so again it may be better to use gain  in karaoke maybe ill give it a try tonight..
   normaly Im the one at my shows who is over loud when I sing, so ive ben using my own mic and keep it out of the monitor mix so I can hear the mains. I also keep the level down from where I set it for general singers. Ive kinda got to do this as its tough to re adjust the mix while im singing. being that all my mics are sm58s they will pick up when you back off the mic if you use it properly. I hate when i go to a show and they wont adjust your volume, and there mics only pic up like 4 inches even with a strong voice
Author:  LondonLive [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Quote:
Amazing the number of people running boards who don't understand unity and gain.

There are so many variables here I wouldn't even know where to begin. I suspect they use the main board for the monitor send also which isn't a good situation to begin with, always fighting feedback in the monitors at the expense of the frontals. From my experience most bands and even some Karaoke hosts are grossly under powered which is yet another recipe for disaster. I am curious though, what level were the mains set at on the slider? Since I switched to running a split with a separate monitor mixer feedback has virtually become non existent for me. I Used to have an AFS224 ( I know Lonnie knows what this is, by the way it's for sale  LOL )  on my monitors and a 31 band. Since I switched I only have a 31 band on them which is used extremely sparingly. The biggest plus is my mains can be all they can be without worrying about feedback in the monitors. Thirty something years doing this and I still learn something new almost dailey. Thats what keeps life interesting.
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
That's actually one of the better feedback eliminators, although they generally aren't needed with a good 31 band in line.
Author:  LondonLive [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Lonman @ Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:33 pm wrote:
That's actually one of the better feedback eliminators, although they generally aren't needed with a good 31 band in line.

I agree, it's a great unit, probably in the top one or two of its type. I was basically just saying if you take care of the problem at its source, you no longer need the remedy. I have a huge rack full of remedies I no longer use, I think it's time for a yard sale LOL . That advise you gave me a few weeks ago about remixing some old two tracks was right on the money, the promo DVD came out better than I had hoped, Thanx Lonnie.
Author:  Lonman [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Yeah don't lose that BBE, even if you don't use it in your rig anymore, it's always got a purpose SOMEWHERE in either recording or doing some sound thickening.

What else you got.....?   :drool:
Author:  LondonLive [ Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Lonman @ Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:55 pm wrote:
Yeah don't lose that BBE, even if you don't use it in your rig anymore, it's always got a purpose SOMEWHERE in either recording or doing some sound thickening.

What else you got.....?   :drool:

Your right on that one, odd thing is I have a 402 and an 482I, I tried them both and preferred the 402 for what I was doing, go figure.

You asked so heres a partial list of goodies I no longer have in use
BBE 402 Maximizer
BBE 482I Maximizer
BBE Max X3 Crossover
Rane AC22 Crossover
Yamaha GQ1031 EQ
ART DRX2100 Multi FX
Ensoniq DP2 Multi FX
Lexicon MPX200 Multi FX
Alesis XT Digital Reverb, I hear this one is pretty rare
Alesis 3630 Compressor
Samson S COM Plus Compressor Highly underated, I liked this rascal
DBX ASF224 Feedback eliminator
3) JBL 2445Js mounted on 2380 horns ( 2 in cabinets)
Several Emilar EC175-8 drivers and EH 800 horns (the bowties)
Several Raw frame speakers 15" JBL 2225Js and  K130's and some 15 and 18 inch Black Widows
Spare Lighting
4 Extra Chauvet Intimidators
1 Chauvet Insignia
1 Chauvet DMX 50 Controller
some NSI dimmers and one NSI relay pack

I know there is more around here because I keep tripping over it LOL
Author:  Catseyeview [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
LondonLive @ Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:56 pm wrote:
You asked so heres a partial list of goodies I no longer have in use
BBE 402 Maximizer
BBE 482I Maximizer
BBE Max X3 Crossover
Rane AC22 Crossover
Yamaha GQ1031 EQ
ART DRX2100 Multi FX
Ensoniq DP2 Multi FX
Lexicon MPX200 Multi FX
Alesis XT Digital Reverb, I hear this one is pretty rare
Alesis 3630 Compressor
Samson S COM Plus Compressor Highly underated, I liked this rascal
DBX ASF224 Feedback eliminator
3) JBL 2445Js mounted on 2380 horns ( 2 in cabinets)
Several Emilar EC175-8 drivers and EH 800 horns (the bowties)
Several Raw frame speakers 15" JBL 2225Js and  K130's and some 15 and 18 inch Black Widows
Spare Lighting
4 Extra Chauvet Intimidators
1 Chauvet Insignia
1 Chauvet DMX 50 Controller
some NSI dimmers and one NSI relay pack

I know there is more around here because I keep tripping over it LOL

Ha' mercy, that's enough to make a gal's heart go more'n pitter patter  :drool:

You married or otherwise?   LMAO
Author:  MorganLeFey [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
yep what Cat says  :drool:
its just that she's a better bet cos I am into 9th day of not smoking and kinda bitchy at present
Author:  Catseyeview [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Still luz ya bitchy or not  :hug:
Author:  MorganLeFey [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
:hug: luz you now get back on topic before Jian growls at us and moves the thread  :whistle:  LMAO
Author:  Jian [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
I saw that  :no:
Author:  MorganLeFey [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
oops  :wave:
Author:  Catseyeview [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Hiya Jian you handsome devil you  :wave:
Author:  LondonLive [ Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Microphone Level
Quote:
Ha' mercy, that's enough to make a gal's heart go more'n pitter patter  

Quote:
yep what Cat says  


Oh my , so much attention. Just think, it's all about the toys I no longer use, I wonder what would happen if I told you what gear I do use now LOL . Anyway, back on topic.
Quote:
What are the considerations with mic placement, and where do you all try to get people to hold the mic?


Keep in mind this is in more of a band situation than a Karaoke situation but it still pertains I think. I have a very strong voice so projection is not a problem for me. In the course of an average evening I'll sing several songs ranging from Uriah Heep to Cracker. On the tune Low by Cracker for example I'll be anywhere from right on the mic to close to a foot off the mic as the tune has three different dynamic ranges in it. On Stealn' by Uriah Heep I sing the whole tune at about three inches off the mic.The mixer (Allen & Heath) mains are usually at unity or slightly under, my channel fader is about the same but sometimes as much as -6 db. The gain is usually around the 9 or 10 O:Clock position. The Mic is a Shure Beta 58A. I'm running approximately 3,000 watts on the frontals with about half of that on the bottoms.
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