Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: Feedback in a small venue

Hi, Iam curious to know what speakers you push with that powered mixer?

Dang, Kelly!

You got that hair thang going on and I just went stupid!

Oh Gawd, I love thick lush hair like yours!...It kills me and make me go totally stupid.

I'm sorry, but I can't help you further till I get over looking at you. My mind has gone blank. :shock:

So this is what hubby wrote the Beheinger support last night :

I just purchased the DSP1124P today, 10/21/07.

I have the Yamaha EMX5014C (Powered Mixer). I can not figure out how to set up
the DSP1124P with my mixer. I thought the DSP1124P would go in between the
Mixer/Amp and the mics. But I read in your material DO NOT HOOK your mic
directly into the DSP1124P.

So I guess my question is can I use this equipment with a Powered Mixer/Amp.
If so does the DSP1124 go in between my mixer audio output and the speakers?

Thanks

This is what they wrote him back a few minutes ago :

Good news! Your Yamaha EMX5014C appears to have insert points on each mich
channel. They can be found below where you connect the mics.

Using an insert cable:

1. Connect the TRS end (the one that looks like a stereo jack) all the way into
the insert point on the channel that you want to process.

2. Take the end of the insert cable labelled "TIP" and connect it to the input
of the DSP1124P.

3. Take the end labelled "RING" and connect it to the output of your DSP1124P.

4. Repeat for the other channel of the DSP1124P

Now you can leave the back of the DSP1124P connected and just move the TRS end
from insert point to insert point.

Your mixer does not have MAIN or AMP INSERTS, so you cannot insert the DSP1124P
into the entire mix.
You can see exactly what an insert cable look like at:

http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm

We hope that we have been able to help you with this information.

Best regards,
Glenn S.
Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team

Sound reasonable to all of you ??

Hmm. A "feedback destroyer" is nothing but an equalizer, no?

If you have a flexible powered mixer, then you should be able to hook into the mono or L/R out and then into the power amp insert. I do just that to put an EQ inline.

Are your speakers on stands and high enough so that your microphones are not in line with your horns?

Another approach could be the mic.

Some mics have a narrower cone where they amplify incoming sounds.

Generally low cost lightweight mics recieve sound from any direction to some extent, while the better mics recieve sound more exclusively from the singer who is singing correctly into the mic.

On the other hand if you get a good mic with a narrow cone of sound reception you have to teach your singers to sing into and not to the side of the mic. If you have to turn up the gain on the mic very high because the singers are singing to the side, then you will get feedback for that reason, even with a good directional mic.

This may not be the (main ) problem but it could be. Speaker positioning is always important. Pointng any mic at an active speaker that is the mics output will always get feedback. The only real variables are how much the mic is amplifying the sounds, how direct you point the mic at the speakers and how wide a cone of area the mic picks up sound from.

Author:	Karaoke Kelley [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:03 am ]
Post subject:	Feedback in a small venue
How do you get rid of it when you cant move the speakers any further apart, We bought a fb destroyer yesterday & it seems we didnt buy the right thing says we cant hook it up directly to the mics. Oh & we have a powered mixer so I understand there could be problems with that too. I just hate sales people that tell you that this is what you need ( even physically having my mixer there) & then getting home & reading in the directions that it cant be used..$..all about the $ ! we have never used a fbd so we havent got a clue. The fb we talk of is not "that" bad just annoying at times. If anyone has ANY insight please feel free to share I'll get hubby to look at the posts tonight & see if he can follow any leads Thanks again to my very smart friends here that always help me out of these jams

Author:	karyoker [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Typical mains have a 90 degree spread turn the speakers away from the singer. If the singer is close to the back wall hang a sound absorbent material on the wall. In some small venues it is best to put the speakers on the opposite end of the room. Dont put the singers in a corner. Overall levels are important If you have to turn mic gains high then it will cause feedback. Normally in a small venue good singers dont need all mic. They project but the "quiet" singers give you problems.

Author:	mckyj57 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Hmm. A "feedback destroyer" is nothing but an equalizer, no? If you have a flexible powered mixer, then you should be able to hook into the mono or L/R out and then into the power amp insert. I do just that to put an EQ inline. Mixer --> Mono Out --> EQ --> Power Amp Insert It would certainly help to know model numbers if anyone is to help. I recommend reading the Sound Reinforcement Handbook and then asking more questions here. It helped me a lot....

Author:	Keith02 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Feedback is a complicated beast but it really is easy to eliminate/control it once you understand it.(not saying you don't) Stop worrying about speaker separation cause THAT is not the problem....The problem is related to speaker placement in relation to mics, in relation to reflective surfaces, in relation to certain freqs, and in relation to sound pressure levels. So as you can see, there is a lot going on that you need to consider and work out, and watch/listen for during the show. Let's start with floor monitors.....If you use monitors, then you can expect feedback til you get them placed and dialed in properly. Place monitors directly in front of mic stand angled up at singer's face....If stage has near backwall and or low ceiling, then expect monitors to ring certain freqs at louder stage levels.....Best solution is this case is 31 band eq just for monitors and low cuts on mics....Then ring out monitors with mains cut out first....Afterwards, instruct singers to never point mic at monitors(lots of singers drop/point mic down with their arm tween verses.) Mains: Mains should NEVER be alongside or behind mics....They must be located and pointed to where they do not cast sound energy directly into your mics. Ideally, the mains should be at frontmost edge of stage pointed out toward audience. EQ: A 31 Band EQ should be in every rack, and all mixers should have inserts on each mic strip including the mains/master out. A 31 band EQ is the best defence against feedback in both mains and monitors....If running stereo with mono monitors, then you need 3 channels of 31 band EQ. One for the monitors and one channel for each side of mains....you simply cut the offending freqs when feedback occurs. LOW FREQUENCY FEEDBACK: Sometimes called subsonic feedback. Subsonic feedback is a system/show killer!........Sometimes you can't hear it, but believe me your mics can! Subsonic feedback sucks amp power and kills your bass and highs. It often causes a very deep/low droning sound that completety deadens/kills the dynamics of your sound....Subsonic feedback is best prevented with a mixer that has low cuts on each mic strip and a followup total cut below 50 HZ at the 31 band EQ on both mains and monitors.

Author:	Karaoke Kelley [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
We have a Yamaha EMX5014C powered mixer...and we bought a Behringer (I know I know :giveup: ) DSP1124P Feedback Destroyer Pro...Dont know if that helps any but did want to say we are set up in front of a wall & one speaker is in a corner & the other is about 20 ft away maybe so maybe you all can give me tips there too...its a really a small place & has a pool table to the right of us which interferes with speaker placement too.. in a catch 22 i guess.. Keith thanks for the detailed info I'll get the techie in the house to look at it when he gets home..Im sure confused !! !

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Author:	jamkaraoke [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
imagine a straight line from speaker to speaker - Are the singers in front of or behind that line? - As mentioned keeping the mics in back of the speakers will eliminate most feed back problems -- If space limits your use of a monitor I would suggest returning the FB destroyer and buying an inexpensive SPOT TYPE POWERED MONITOR so the singers can hear themselves. This allows you to re-place the speakers in a more feedback friendly location.

Author:	TOMMIE TUNES [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Hi, Iam curious to know what speakers you push with that powered mixer?

Author:	Karaoke Kelley [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
So this is what hubby wrote the Beheinger support last night : I just purchased the DSP1124P today, 10/21/07. I have the Yamaha EMX5014C (Powered Mixer). I can not figure out how to set up the DSP1124P with my mixer. I thought the DSP1124P would go in between the Mixer/Amp and the mics. But I read in your material DO NOT HOOK your mic directly into the DSP1124P. So I guess my question is can I use this equipment with a Powered Mixer/Amp. If so does the DSP1124 go in between my mixer audio output and the speakers? Thanks This is what they wrote him back a few minutes ago : Good news! Your Yamaha EMX5014C appears to have insert points on each mich channel. They can be found below where you connect the mics. Using an insert cable: 1. Connect the TRS end (the one that looks like a stereo jack) all the way into the insert point on the channel that you want to process. 2. Take the end of the insert cable labelled "TIP" and connect it to the input of the DSP1124P. 3. Take the end labelled "RING" and connect it to the output of your DSP1124P. 4. Repeat for the other channel of the DSP1124P Now you can leave the back of the DSP1124P connected and just move the TRS end from insert point to insert point. Your mixer does not have MAIN or AMP INSERTS, so you cannot insert the DSP1124P into the entire mix. You can see exactly what an insert cable look like at: http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm We hope that we have been able to help you with this information. Best regards, Glenn S. Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team Sound reasonable to all of you ??

Author:	Steven Kaplan [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Get the speakers out've the corner. In a small room where there's nothing to baffle the area between an omnidirectional microphone and speakers thats firing angled towards the microphone the corner location creates a problem... Try something like this.. Move speakers forward and use a stage monitor for your own listening and the singers listening.. If feedback is a problem at sound levels you need, you need to be behind the speakers... Either that, or know how to baffle, and change room acoustics as well as likely the microphone to accomodate the small room.. If the microphone is somewhat close to a wall or closed in, and the speakers are in a corner your going to get a lot of resonance in a small non-buffered room... I've draped carpeting over speakers to create buffers. but I'd try moving the speakers as follows... or experiment with similar variations if possible... Also a less directional microphone might help.. Oh yeah, I used "S" as Speakers, and "M" for Mic

Author:	Keith02 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Dang, Kelly! You got that hair thang going on and I just went stupid! Oh Gawd, I love thick lush hair like yours!...It kills me and make me go totally stupid. I'm sorry, but I can't help you further till I get over looking at you. My mind has gone blank.

Author:	Keith02 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Pretty eyes, too.

Author:	Keith02 [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
That does it!....you are sick, too? Nothing makes me thump my chest more than a beautiful fem who is sick and super fragile. I sure hope somebody thinks to spoil you with lots of invited comfort and attention. Don't you worry aout those red eyes and runny nose. Guys like to feel needed and sights like that offer opportunity to them and trigger their protective instincts. Hope you feel better soon.

Author:	Lonman [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Karaoke Kelley @ Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:11 am wrote: So this is what hubby wrote the Beheinger support last night : I just purchased the DSP1124P today, 10/21/07. I have the Yamaha EMX5014C (Powered Mixer). I can not figure out how to set up the DSP1124P with my mixer. I thought the DSP1124P would go in between the Mixer/Amp and the mics. But I read in your material DO NOT HOOK your mic directly into the DSP1124P. So I guess my question is can I use this equipment with a Powered Mixer/Amp. If so does the DSP1124 go in between my mixer audio output and the speakers? Thanks This is what they wrote him back a few minutes ago : Good news! Your Yamaha EMX5014C appears to have insert points on each mich channel. They can be found below where you connect the mics. Using an insert cable: 1. Connect the TRS end (the one that looks like a stereo jack) all the way into the insert point on the channel that you want to process. 2. Take the end of the insert cable labelled "TIP" and connect it to the input of the DSP1124P. 3. Take the end labelled "RING" and connect it to the output of your DSP1124P. 4. Repeat for the other channel of the DSP1124P Now you can leave the back of the DSP1124P connected and just move the TRS end from insert point to insert point. Your mixer does not have MAIN or AMP INSERTS, so you cannot insert the DSP1124P into the entire mix. You can see exactly what an insert cable look like at: http://www.tweakheadz.com/all_about_cables.htm We hope that we have been able to help you with this information. Best regards, Glenn S. Your BEHRINGER Customer Support Team Sound reasonable to all of you ?? Sounds exactly correct. Although the Behringer Feedback Destroyer is not a very good unit, I was given one to test in a rig for a few days & it actually did more bad than good. The dbx AFS-224 is a better unit that don't destroy the the useable frequencies. Sabine FBX2400 is even a better unit but it is quite a bit more.

Author:	Lonman [ Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
mckyj57 @ Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:44 am wrote: Hmm. A "feedback destroyer" is nothing but an equalizer, no? It's actually a very small notch parametric eq. It automatically senses the offending frequency & will take out that notch. Unlike a standard graphic eq, when it pulls the frequency it has very little affect on the adjacent frequencies surrounding it. A standard graphic eq (31 band or less) you can pull out the offending frequency, but it will also pull a section of frequencies both above & below it making a noticeable audible difference. A good 31 band is still good for setting/tuning your room then you can adjust channel eq's if needed. Quote: If you have a flexible powered mixer, then you should be able to hook into the mono or L/R out and then into the power amp insert. I do just that to put an EQ inline. Her mixer doesn't have main/amp inserts.

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Author:	TOMMIE TUNES [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Are your speakers on stands and high enough so that your microphones are not in line with your horns?

Author:	Dr Fred [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
Another approach could be the mic. Some mics have a narrower cone where they amplify incoming sounds. Generally low cost lightweight mics recieve sound from any direction to some extent, while the better mics recieve sound more exclusively from the singer who is singing correctly into the mic. On the other hand if you get a good mic with a narrow cone of sound reception you have to teach your singers to sing into and not to the side of the mic. If you have to turn up the gain on the mic very high because the singers are singing to the side, then you will get feedback for that reason, even with a good directional mic. This may not be the (main ) problem but it could be. Speaker positioning is always important. Pointng any mic at an active speaker that is the mics output will always get feedback. The only real variables are how much the mic is amplifying the sounds, how direct you point the mic at the speakers and how wide a cone of area the mic picks up sound from.

Author:	Karaoke Kelley [ Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Feedback in a small venue
TOMMIE TUNES @ Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:35 am wrote: Are your speakers on stands and high enough so that your microphones are not in line with your horns? They can go higher maybe I'll try that...seems a simple first step Thanks , dunno why we didnt think of that :ggof: