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Kaplan in discussing song critiques mentioned the prerequisite to determining how well you do is based on whether you are trying to do an exact cover or make a song your own. As I sing and submit song after song - most of what I do are covers and attempts to be like the original artist. In my opinion this is a bit frustrating and not completely fulfilling because generally in Singers Showcase or at karaoke you can't do a song better than the original artist. This is especially true because additionally all the music backings produced for the song play specifically in music and timing like the original. This makes it really hard for me to deviate and flavor a song as my own.

It seems to me this is really important. In order for me to really be proud of something it's needs to be flavored by me. Do you all agree? Even on American Idol they always judge based on how well the artist 'made it their own'. Of course, that's possible for them because they have a band / orchestra behind them and can change to fit their version. Usually I am unable to do this though.

Times when I've kind of been able to do this are....

1) While singing a female vocal as a male. --Some songs I do are gender benders such as when I've sung Karen Carpenter, Stevie Nicks, or Shania Twain. (Check out my version of 'Landslide' in Showcase.) Since singing as a male sounds completely different than a female vocal this gives it a bit of a different sound. Also sometimes I have to sing in a different key (octave or so down) - which also changes the flavor. Sometimes in female vocals I can't do it the same way as the original and so I change it a bit while still in time with the backing.

2) When I am unfamiliar with the original. --This is true for some songs I've sung such as 'Clocks' by Coldplay and 'One' and 'Walk On' by U2 - (I think in Showcase). I hadn't heard the songs enough myself to reproduce them exactly from memory and so over time and practicing to make it work I came up with my own version which initially I may have thought was similar to the original until I later found out it wasn't.

Does this bug any of the rest of you? Do you feel the same way? What do you do to 'Make a song your own'? I wonder if to be fulfilled as a singer I have to write and create my own songs? Thoughts?

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The Truth Is Out There

i had this long speech typed out and it just poofed....i tend to change up alotta my songs, not always for the better either but its fun seeing what u can do to a song different than what they did....i sang YESTERDAY it  turned out pretty good and it was quite a bit different ,  i also sing gender bender but not like a woman....no falsetto, and i really don't look good in a dress...well i do but not hot pants...

i sing it like me which makes the song different right there...and i may go up where she goes down r vice versa, i just play with it....

i took an elvis song and made it hard country....i'll take a pop song sing it like an oldies might sound....i find in most songs ur pretty free to do alot of things, altho harmony can really shut u down u pretty much have to follow them, but other than that u can stretch it quite a bit....sometime wayyyyy too far....l...all in fun....

Yeah the female vocals I usually do would be generic ones - like I probably wouldn't do 'Man, I Feel Like A Woman' - even though I could probably pull it off, instead I do things that could apply to man or woman such as 'The Look Of Love'. The Carpenter songs I did awhile back I changed up quite a bit IMO - not sure if any are still in Showcase. Like you mentioned I kind of sang all around the melody, but still I think in order to do a really good personally unique version of a popular cover you have to have new instrumentation, with possibly new timings, and inflexions. An old example I can think of is 'Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me' by Elton John. You may remember the old 80's popular Horror Flick 'The Lost Boys'. In that movie they had a new version of 'Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me' that was quite unique and very good in my opinion. It rivaled the original and may have beat it in some ways. But it was sung somewhat differently and had different instruments, etc. I encourage all of you to find it and check out the difference so you know what I mean. It's on 'The Lost Boys' soundtrack but can probably be found on the web somewhere.

Here is some more info:
"Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me" has been a popular song for other artists to perform or record as well. Roger Daltrey sang it for the 1987 soundtrack The Lost Boys. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Let_ ... Down_on_Me

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The Truth Is Out There

  Bill, I think you're scaring me talking about the Lost Boys movie. There could be a vampire lurking about or a monster in my closet.  You should check your closet, too because there could be some sort of gender bending singing monster ready to come out of the closet.  :no:

Or else I'm just sort of an idiot.  :whistle:

-Jeffieoke-oke   [schild=1 fontcolor=DC143C shadowcolor=FFD700 shieldshadow=1]Closet Monsters Unite![/schild]

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OK What Now gets FULL credit for mentioning this point Planet Bill. He brought this up a year or two ago when we were discussing methods for critiquing, and it's a VERY good point that I haven't forgotten.  Since I was a cover musician I tend to forget that there are OTHER ways to perform a song besides trying for the "Knock-off" of an original. For this reason it's always best for the person requesting a Critique to also mention what they are attempting to do with the song.  BUT,  I'll let OK What Now discuss this..  

What Billy stated is VERY true.  There's a vast difference between nailing the cover, and creatively making a song rendition your own style.  It wouldn't be fair for me to make "the assumption" that *all* doing a song, are trying for the same result I might opt for.  I prefer to NOT assume when it comes to others aesthetic preferences. This is how I learn too, as opposed to staying stuck in a rut of tunnel-vision, and stubbornness.  People receiving critiques aren't the only ones that learn something.. Those of us offering them learn A LOT too !  It's the beauty of this whole process.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

to me changes in a song can be so slight that only you as a singer may catch it yet you know it's there....you hear it and say yeaaaaa i like the way i did that note, r line, r verse.....sometimes u don't have to completely change a whole song to make urself happy r feel u did something.....i love playing around with changing expressions of a song knowing i control what i want that song to do,  kinda hard to explain....
how can anyone truly critique that? they can't know how u feel...but  u can have the excitement of knowing that u changed a few notes in a song that may have made it sound even better....that's hard to do.....why i take critiques with a grain of salt, nothing against the ones doing the critiques but even the best ear can't hear what ur feeling sometimes, because when it comes to changing up the way a song is sung, u won't hear that in the emotion of the song....but you know inside you ....again hard to explain....

on the song i just subbed...RAINY NIGHT IN GEORGIA.....when i would say...rainy night in georgia i sang it different, i kinda went up with it instead of the way he did it....was it better probably not but i did change it up i did make it different without conpletely screwing it up.....i hope......ll....most might not have noticed it but i knew it.....kinda put my on spin to it....Billy

AND,  too often "the best ear" if innovative resistant and stuck in a canned, or cliche box will NOT be the ear to recognise, or hear potential for tomorrows pop radio hit !  This is what I'm learning.  I'm going to get into this a bit more later because I deal with this currently in my life !   When it comes to evolving with style, a person with a "good ear" doesn't mean the person isn't stuck, change resistant, and unable to recognise "quality" composition that might in fact be tomorrows pop-radio hit.  I have a good ear,  I also have a stubborn ear influenced by my own aesthetic tastes. I'm not the person who will release a song that will become tomorrows hit, reason being,  MOST of what I like, has been done already, hence, I have a "Cliche' ear.  When I listen now, I make a VERY strong effort to think "outside the box" I'm caught up in.   Good ear, doesn't help assure me in *todays* music realm ability to spot a FABULOUS composition *down the road*, and, assuming a person doesn't learn something about aesthetics, how styles change, good ear doesn't mean we allow for innovation and change which is ultimately what artistic style is about. It evolves, it changes, it doesn't care about MY ear.  I'm trying to learn to think "beyond" as a result.  Because "beyond" is tomorrows music preferences whether *I* like it or not today !    After-all,  My favorite song in 15 years from now, will likely be a song I've never heard to date.

I can't stress how important it is FOR ME, to remind myself to know my limitations, or what I *don't know* or have difficulty with in the music realm; To recognise that even a remake of "the cover" has a "catch", or change, that will enable the :remake: to possible gain recognition on top 40 radio tomorrow.  There's a reason I'm stating this,  I'll get to it !


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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I agree with you. Another song they redid (ugh.. grammar) in that movie is 'People Are Strange'. I LOVE the entire soundtrack of the film and literally wore my old cassette to ribbons listening to it many years ago. Of course, I'm a vampire flick freak, so that probably is part of the reason I enjoyed the soundtrack so much, but *I* like to think it was just really good music.

As for 'making it your own', I think it's fully possible to make songs 'your' own, even with karaoke backing, but the more you have things like 'backup singers', the more tied to the original pacing and melody you are as a singer.

Personally, and I'm not disagreeing with Kappy because no doubt, he has his own guidelines that he works within, but I try to critique each song on it's OWN merit, as if I were hearing it for the first time. That is difficult when you're hearing someone do your favorite songs and doing them very differently, but musically, a performance either works, or it doesn't.

Different people are going to hear different things, obviously. A woman hearing her man croon a song of love for her, or a mother hearing her child, might hear the most beautiful rendition this side of heaven... though the performance might be full of flaws to an outside ear. I try to take everything into consideration when I critique, to the extent of my knowledge, and when something is off and i just can't tell what it is, I will say that as well.

Pitch is pretty easy for the most part. There is a fairly structured range within a musical key of where a melody can go, along with certain rule breakers for 'blues' type dissonant notes or key changes. Even considering those though, when a note is flat, sharp, or a melody just goes completely off-key.. that noticeably hurts the performance.

Timing... similar to pitch. Every song has a fairly structured cadence with a certain amount of room to play within that timing to allow for syncopation and then certain jazz pieces which have a very loose, but still discernible rhythm.

Emotion... not necessarily what the singer is FEELING, but what they project. Passion, or even lack thereof, are useful tools in the artist's hands (so to speak).

Breath control/Power... Whether a song is loud or soft, it's important because otherwise volume fluctuates unintentionally, pitch wavers, phrases end before they are supposed to, etc. There are of course lot of other things to consider as well which sometimes come to mind as I hear a piece, other times I do not have the technical skill to pinpoint.

Now, let's consider the case of the singer who does a very good imitation of a song, where the original singer basically sucks. (yeah yeah... that's not very technical, but you get the point). In THAT case, I would have to grudgingly say 'it's a very good copy of a bad song'. Personally, I would rather see the person improve the song, but that is the choice of the singer. There are some songs that I really enjoy, which are technically not that great (example - some of the songs by The Violent Femmes - Blister in the Sun album). In those cases, it usually comes down to whether or not the song is 'fun' with strong audience appeal.

Ok... sorry that got so long, I'm going to stop now. Haven't been here in a while.

I'm a singer who makes her bread and butter by making each song sound like "me" when you start talking Elton and don't let the sun go down- I always think of Oleta Adams who ironically was discovered BY elton! Her version is the best I have heard. hearing singers like her do songs that I have heard a million times- in a different way really helps me- it gets the ball rolling to compare the two and makes me think about how 'I" would change it to suit "Me" in particular. I always want to sound like "me" rather than the original- if you're ever listening to something i did - Keep in mind that "That's" the most important thing for me. That's also one reason you'll hear me do a LOT of male songs. it forces me to do them my own way.

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You Know..  The reason I'm so ashamed of my singing is because I've NEVER allowed "Me" to sing..  If I'm not Brad Delp, Burton Cummings, David Clayton Thomas, Steve Perry I listen and "suck".  Reason being,  I'm trying ONLY to sound EXACTLY like the above which leaves tremendous margin for me to fail miserably.. I need to give myself permission to find a new way to try to sing these songs.. I might need to resort to creativity rather than exact attempt at replicating to pull off singing. It's something I've never tried !

BTW,  on your site over the rainbow was spectacular !


Weirdest thing tho.. I play my instruments and like the guitar sound, instrument sound..but when I let a part of me out and sing... I'm still at the stage where I go
"Yuck, Gag,  that's me...EWWW", it's that psychological obstacle I'm having a tough time overcoming... which is Me singing as opposed to Me not cloning another as I do when I play. Ever notice how we "wannbe" rock vocalists when singing (EVEN assuming we may naturally be baritone singers) try desparately to push our voice to 1st tenor).  I REALLY need to give that up

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

all r excellent points steven and most i had never thought of before....

I never want to do something so that it sounds "exactly" like what the original artist did.  Where's the fun in that?  It's been done before. *lopsided grin*  However, I don't want to make it so much "me" as to make it unrecognizable.  I was at a wedding once where the wedding singer over-sang EVERYTHING.  After awhile, I was just annoyed and couldn't enjoy what she was doing.  I'm still trying to figure out how she managed to over-sing "Misty."  

I took an audition workshop where one of the instructors (who was a musical director) said that they don't appreciate it when someone comes into an audition with a well known song and then makes a lot of changes to it because then it becomes distracting.  They are no longer paying attention to the voice, but thinking "Why did she choose to do THAT?" and it pulls them out of the "moment."  I think the same kind of thing can apply to an audience.

I don't think "making it your own" is always a concious choice, either.  There are some things I sing that, initially, I was kind of disappointed in because I thought I was doing it exactly like the original artist - but couldn't really think of any other way to do it.  Then I went back and listened to the original recording and realized that what I was doing WAS significantly different.

Definitely make something your own and have fun with it - unless you are an impersonator. *impish grin*

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

And for me Operakitty,  I found my comfort area as a follower "problem solving" putting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together to form the finished result.  Which is ironic considering my feelings about reading classical music. My feelings were it's sterile, too two-dimensional and restrictive.. and again, ironically, I considered those reading Schirmers trying to replicate Forte, expression,exact tempo and composition to be "Paint by number" musicians.  I never saw those of us who were just technicians figuring out parts "by ear" as restricted as the "sheet music" performers, yet to the innovators, and creative types, what I do is boring.  Yet, it always kept me busy, and trying to build the music to exact specs by ear figuring out parts bandmates could not was enough fun for me.

Perhaps this is the biggest difference between a "front" performing musician, and those of us that are just comfortable backing you singers (me), the followers, not the leaders (in the sense of possible cutting edge style). I was quite confident with what I could do well, enjoyed attempting what I couldn't, but knew my place because I had no choice, I was reminded of my place in a competitive area.

I'd really end up getting flustered when faced with the following dialogue. someone would say, "Your a Musician ?  You'll have to play for me something your wrote"

I felt like responding with, (at times I did),  "What aspect of I'm a musician aren't you understanding?"   "Did I say I was a Composer ?, No"... "Everybody and nobody is a composer", "EVERYBODY thinks they can write music, I realized LONG ago it's not my area."  "The fact that some of the amazingly talented musicians are also composers, and once their foot is in the door the name sells is a different story","but I'm a just a musician so name a song you like and if I can stand it, I'll figure it out."

In the cocktail genre I did style lounge piano, and it sounded :cliche:.  But it worked (at least for me)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

steven may I make a suggestion. I feel that what you are experiencing is the same as every radio dj experiences when they air-check themselves (there is a tech term for it but it escapes me at present). It takes a heck of a long time to train the ear to overcome the apparant difference between what the ear hears when you speak and what the ear hears when you listen back to a recording.
My suggestion would be you desensitize your ear. Record yourself reading the news, reading Harry Potter, reading the wall st journal...read anything and desensitize yourself then progress onto recording your singing. You will find it more acceptable trust me

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Well,  I tried training my dragon software but it died

Seriously tho.. Thanks Vicki,  It takes me about an hour to record an outgoing message on my answering machine,  but you can ask BIlly...  He'll tell you it's understandable why..  I talk funny !  I've also been blessed with chronic sinusitis.  I suppose it's not a gift many singers wish for.  All kidding aside,  I've been told my voice is soothing like Dr Reuben the FM radio shrink of the 1980's..    Maybe I should pick up a Dr Seuss book, and cut an album reciting Grinch lullibyes for hearing impaired babies.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

[quote="Steven Kaplan @ Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:24 pm
And for me Operakitty,  I found my comfort area as a follower "problem solving" putting the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together to form the finished result. [/quote]

Which would make you an excellent candidate to be a reference vocal on karaoke CDs...



Yet there is such a difference between a musician who is just playing what is on the page and a musician who truly FEELS what they're playing.  



That's exactly how I learn something, though.  I have a very limited ability to read music.  I learn most things by listening and trying to reproduce what I hear.  Now, even as I'm doing that, I hear variations in my head.  Sometimes, what I hear in my head is so definite to me, that when I hear it sung "right," it sounds completely wrong to me.   I've had to learn to allow myself to "play" and take risks with new material.  It doesn't have to sound "perfect" every time.



That's what really matters in the long run, though...

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

Yes! So often I go to karaoke and may hear a great singer do an almost perfect version of a cover copy. Oftentimes I try and do this. But it seems a bit soulless. Those performances are never really memorable because you just think ok so they sound like Billy Idol or Gloria Estevan - so what? Those artists have already done that, they are already popular for it. All you are doing in that case is just copying them. True it's great if they can hold a key and keep the timing, and even sound like the original artist - but the point is they are not the original so what is the point! IMO it is those artists /singers that creatively and inspirationally sing a song with tons of emotion that bring a performance and something memorable and possibly remarkable.

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The Truth Is Out There

Stephen this might be a good reason to go to karaoke, and do lots of practice at home. Perhaps it would get you used to hearing yourself and then you could start improving yourself. I don't know if you sound bad, but you always say you do.  LMAO

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The Truth Is Out There

I did,  spending perhaps 5 hours a night 4 times a week glued to the CAVS JB-99. Getting some help, but a bar wasn't a place for me to receive the level of help I need in order to pull off singing lead parts.




I do, perhaps as much as most.  Difference being most eventually sound like singers.

I'd say my voice isn't awful, I just sound like a person who can't sing. In fact if I were to sub in singers showcase I'd easily be an 8.  I can also say I'm a much better singer than a few that do submit to the showcase (no names shall be divulged) That being said.  While I enjoy singing, it's not too encouraging to playback what I try to sing only to hear a hybrid Fran Drescher, Alfalfa stylized rendition of a Who song.



I stink.  I'm a wannabe, and I sound like a wannabe without a clue.  What bothers me is I do have a clue, but I can't get my voice to understand this !  Hence my frustration.  I know how to sing.  The only thing restricting me is my crappy sounding voice  One thing I do contend with however is Asthma, chronic respiratory probs, severe allergies, and my nose is generally stuffed.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This seems odd considering your large experience in music, and playing instruments. Notes and pitch, timing, etc you should understand. Sounds like you are having trouble getting your voice to do what you want. I doubt you are as bad as you think, but without hearing who's to know?

I don't think I'm all that great a singer either. I mean I probably do ok on some songs, but my voice isn't completely what I wish for. For instance I can't do any of that Steve Perry falsetto worth a darn. I never took any singing lessons, but I guess since I kid I've always sung around the house or wherever I went. My Mom and Dad often sung around the house too. At first (perhaps 10 years ago) I totally sucked when I went to karaoke. I never wanted to sing lead or solo. I screwed up regularly and was embarassed in public many times. Fortunately I was drinking profusely. However I eventually figured out some of the main stuff I was doing wrong. A lot of it was simply not knowing the material well enough and not having any run throughs on it. Another part of it was being buzzed when I sung. Eventually I got a home karaoke player by a round about fashion and started practicing songs some. When I practice though I might sing sometimes for over 5 hours straight - song after song. This is also how I record usually in 1 or 2 takes - non-multitrack so I can't edit. Anyway, I learned that difficult songs became easier as I practiced them and concentrated on parts I had difficulty with. I learned on my own how important breathing is as it can make or completely break your ability to sing something if not done properly. A lot of it was just experimentation. I started with simple songs for me that weren't that complicated or that I was really familiar with. From there I moved on to more and more difficult stuff. Unfortunately sometimes I stray too far and sometimes you may witness that from my on SS before I sober up and realize how bad something is. A lot of times I sub a song because I really like it and like to sing it not necessarily because it is perfect. However I've begun noticing some of the more polished singers such as Danielle and others who typically only release one song at a time. They typically have better recording equipment, software, and editing methods than me, and they also take their time and really don't seem to release unless it is pretty near 'perfect'. I like that idea and may move in that direction. I have some equipment sitting around since last Sept that I still haven't installed that may help me in that regard. Regardless, I know I've improved, but can't really say I'm great or anything. But not sure how good I need to be anyway if I'm not going to join a local band and tour. Perhaps I should just for the fun of the experience as I'm sure there's all sorts of bands locally in Austin looking for various levels of singers. Still I have plenty of hobbies (you know about my storm chasing) and not sure I'd ever have time to do that seriously.

Anyway, certainly you can improve.



I hear you there Stephen I now have asthma off and on and have always had allergies. Austin is the center for Ragweed, Mold, Cedar, Oak, etc. Those type of problems can really kill your singing.

I remember a few years ago I went to karaoke and seemed to be singing almost top notch. I was doing U2 songs and hitting high notes with no problem. The next day I had pneumonia. It took me at least a year and maybe closer to 2 to get my voice back as good as it was. Ever since the pneumonia I now get asthma which is likely a result of the damage / scarring done I suspect. When I get asthma my lungs and voice lock up. A couple of months ago I was trying to sing a song and could barely sing it. I then figured out maybe the asthma was bothering me. Sure enough I took a hit of Albuterol and in about 15 to 30 minutes stuff that had seemed impossible was easy. It was a bit of a wierd experience. But now I know how important that can be for singing. A lot of my posts on SS have varying degrees of problems with asthma. Sometimes I mention it when I post. I know on at least one of my subs you could hear me wheeze in one part of a song just barely.

So anyway, get that stuff under control and it has to help. Perhaps sleep apnea could be a problem - just a guess. You may be able to go to ear/nose/throat specialist and have them perform some work to enlarge / clear out your sinuses. I could probably use that as well, but unfortunately I am also allergic to scalpels.

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The Truth Is Out There