Karaoke Forums

I recently purchased an IKey online.  It's a $50 device that is so simple to use I almost couldn't believe it.  Not only that, the sound quality of the recordings is excellent.

With the IKey all I do is run a RCA cable from the CD Out on my mixer into the IKey.  I plug my 2GB jump drive into the other end, turn it on, and at the beginning of the show I hit the record button.  I recorded my entire show last Friday in MP3.

I used Adobe Audition to chop the recording into 54 individual mp3s and cut some CDs for a few of the regulars who I knew would appreciate it.  The reaction has been very strong.

Here's what I was thinking - Record my show, cut the songs into MP3s.  Can either transfer them to disk or convert to .wav for replay in CD players.  The first CD is free for everyone, after that it's $2.00 a song or $10 for a disk with any 10 songs they've sung in the past.  To say the least I'm stoked, if just for the opportunity to record my shows, myself, my friends - but this seems like a goldmine - and is too easy (except for the 4 hours it takes to edit a show)!!!

Do any of you record?  What do you do with the recordings?  Are there any legal ramifications?

Yep, you can give them away for purposes of study (as in to show the folks if they suck or not) but you can't sell them or make a large quantity or distribute without paying a whole bunch of folks a whole lot of money.  The song is copyrighted, the background music performance is copyrighted, RedBook audio is copyrighted MP3 compression is copyrighted.... you get the picture.  Good idea but.

I used to record singers if they wanted and charge them for the disk but that was all.  If you're computerized all you have to do is click the "Record" button.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

I have a Tascam CD burner in both my systems - and as a marketing tool I record singers for free.  The quality of the recording is simply amazing, and it's a great gift for singers.  If a new singer walks in to my show, never having sung with me before, I will burn all their songs as a surprise - at the end of the show I walk up and hand it to them - it is really a great marketing tool. I have never charged a cent for these - CD-Rs are so inexpensive now, and the time it takes to hit the 2 buttons it takes to record is minimal. Only problem arises if I have 5-6 people who want to record - all CDs have to be finalized before they'll play and if all of them want to leave at once, I have to take the time to finalize - takes about 1 minute and 10 seconds or something like that for each one. One caveat - too much in the way of added vocal effects bring down the quality a lot. Other than that, the Tascam is a great unit. I picked both of them up on E-bay for less than $300.

If you read many of the past posts here in the past, you will find that officially, just recording a copyrighted material, whether you are giving away for free, is violating the copyright law. If you are doing this in a privacy of your own home for a private party, you may be able to get away with it. If you have a business doing karaoke and doing this kind of recording, I would be very careful not be caught.

_________________

Seize the day and SING!!!

Seems like nobody has a for-sure answer on all of this - I read through the entire judgment on the Panorama issue and one of the things that came up is if you are using something as a "learning tool" and not selling it, it is permissible, that copyright issues are not being infringed upon; however, selling it [highlight=yellow]is[/highlight] considered copyright infringement. I am in an area where there are many, many hosts doing shows with 80,000-plus songs on hard drives with laptops with nary a hard copy in sight - I guess I'd be more concerned if the BMI inspectors, etc., were doing their jobs and pulling in these illegal acts.

BMI/ASCAP only care about if the clubs are paying their fees for the music being played, they don't enforce the illegal burns/hardrives.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Record the vocal only on the flash drive. Mic2 left mic2 right.  What the singer does with it in the privacy of his own home is nobodys business 98% of karaoke singers are recording to improve.. They are not going to use it for any commercial purpose or audtion.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Here's the current U.S. law concerning "Fair Use."   This would seem to say from my reading anyway, that it's okay to record a karaoke performance so long as it is for the purpose of detecting suckage.

17 USC Sec. 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use



Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

Totally agree.. There are some that record then turn around and use it for fill which might be a bit shady...Although ascap wouldnt care as long as the fees are paid.

I havnt had a request to record for a long time. But I dont have any qualms doing it for friends. I wouldnt do it for a stranger maybe vocal only..

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Go see what happened to Panorama when they tried to sell copies of songs they had recorded without consent of the copyright holders!  OUCH!

Precisely why I read the whole judgment.  Use of materials for "teaching" is acceptable as long as you don't try to sell it  - I would say that most people use recordings to see where they need to improve (most have said to me it is the best learning tool they've ever had...)

Still a pretty grey area that really hasn't been tried in court.  It's still technically a commercial recording regardless of whether you are giving it out for 'teaching' purposes, the club is benifiting because people want to come in to record.  May have a hard time in court if it actually came about.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

"Great Marketing Tool",  During a "show" that YOU are receiving monetary reimbursment for ?  "Show in a commercial setting". Are you a business person doing something that duplicates and involves the copying of others copyrighted material without paying royalties or receiving permission ?  Does this benefit you (as in promoting yourself) ?

Food for thought.


You're a business person doing this correct ?

Is this copying being done, and staying within the confines of your own private home ?


Now don't get me wrong,  I'm not saying I agree with this stuff.  Yet "Strength within ambiguity of Fair Use Act" and how the Fair Use Defense historically has been EXTREMELY tough to use in ANY commercial case or setting (assuming something is taken to court) indicates that although this might be considered de minimus, it doesn't make it :legal:

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You might help cover your butt by asking a $5 donation for the CD instead of just saying it's five dollars. This way you are inferring it's a donation not that it is for sale.

_________________
[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

But then who benefits from the 'donation'?  If it goes to you or the bar then it's monetary gain.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

It is mainly sales tax I'm trying to differ here. If it is considered say a tip instead of a sale - you may pay on the monetary gain, but not the head ache of sales tax and other responsibilities of selling items. You can gift money to an individual up to $12,000 that was my first thought although a stretch. Chances are no one is going to call you on it anyway. I would rather get hit up for not claiming tips or sliding by with it as being a gift of money than sales tax.

The funny thing about gifted money is all you need to back that up is a piece of paper from the person saying they gifted blank amount to you. Nontaxable on both sides. If money is handed to you and not put in a tip jar it would be hard to prove what it was for.  :D

_________________
[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I guess I would only say that everything is relative. I may record 1 singer a month or 5 singers a month, sometimes no singers at all. It is a service that I offer the singers. I don't make a profit off it, and most people say that it is the best method they have found for improving their singing. No one is using those recordings as a demo; they are playing them in their cars, or at most sending them to their mother or grandma who's never heard them sing. I'm not sure where you are, Steve, but in NW Washington State, if the inspectors (are there really any???) decided to do a sweep of illegal karaoke businesses, in all probability they'd be so busy pulling in laptops and harddrives and CAVS players, there'd be no room for anyone else. I watch with interest anything related to the legalities of karaoke, the companies selling CDGs, the vendors selling hard drives loaded with music, etc. The laws are at best vague and at worst so ill-defined that I have made a decision that what I do with this service is relatively harmless when compared to the TRULY and BLATANTLY  illegal activities going on.

On the other side of this coin: My S/O's band is successful worldwide on the internet. They sell CDs all over the world through many sources. They've had radio stations call from Australia, Italy, The Netherlands, and many other locations, asking for permission to play their music on radio stations. I guess I'm pretty much a realist when it comes to the fact that there will never be a fail-safe way to control what happens with copyrighted music, and in reality we've probably lost thousands of dollars to illegal copies. The legal system is a dinosaur when it comes to much of what happens on the internet.  How long did it take for Napster to pay the piper?  We can only let our conscience be our guide and that, we all know, is DEFINITELY relative.

I've decided it's probably best not to sell the recordings.  I can see the problem here clear ... Yet, I won't turn anyone away for giving me that $5 they owe me for a disc of their songs for 'suckage' detection.  :)

Unfortuneately are legal system is usually much smarter than we are folks.  They don't buy rhetoric, they won't even listen to it.


 Come on Babs seriously !  Two local "strip joints" weren't actually "strip joints",  they had "Lingerie modeling" on particular nights.. Bottomline is you can put a dress on a pig,  but it's still a pig.  That's just how the courts viewed this..




Guess *I* would want to hear this from my Atty who would be willing to challenge current law *assuming* I became a Defendant in such a case. Otherwise I'm just agreeing to take a risk KNOWING that what I'm doing is very likely illegal. We can rationalize many things,  we can even become internet rhetoricians, but if you were to receive a summons, see how far your logic will get you !   You can say what you wish to us, but court rulings aren't always what appears logical, or even fair, and to use a defense such as "Leave me alone, I'm small and look what HE'S getting away with" NEVER works !  What would a teacher say to a kindergartner that tried to exonerate themselves using such a line ?

I might say that Marijuana relative to alcohol (a legal substance to sell) is more of a mild analgesic substance and what I do to MY body (is my business) compared to the effects of the powerful hypnotic depressant ethyl alcohol. In fact I MIGHT be right.. Will this get me off the hook for having the substance in my possession in certain cases ?  NO.  Fact is, our legal system is composed of MUCH more clever rhetoricians than US.. It doesn't matter how *I* opt to rationalize the law. UNLESS, I have total confidence that I can hold my own against the federal court system (And you know how the adage goes regarding the fool for an Atty). If push comes to shove, how I feel, and rationalize the law in an internet chatroom will not vindicate me in a court of law assuming things get to such a point.



ARE you a business person working in a commercial setting copying and distributing copyright protected material KNOWINGLY. Yes or No ?    (That's all it takes.)



My guess is you might be currently correct in your particular geographic area, and it's a guess, it's usually almost always dollars (and NOT cents) businesses go after. This isn't an inexpensive process for prosecution, and they don't wish to lose big bucks only to get laughed out've court. The cost of prosecuting the tiny guy isn't often worth it, UNLESS they decide you'd make a great sacrificial lamb. Who knows ??  This MIGHT not make it to court due to the fact its considered MINIMAL (and I mentioned that), but still, if it does make it to court and you are charged as a commercial infractor it'll cost you.. This is what we've stated in past threads here.  We still make decisions to break or adhere to current laws.



While I tend to make the same determination in so many cases in my private life, it doesn't make my behaviour "correct" or "legal".  It won't exonerate me assuming I'm honed in on.  Similarly IRS stuff.. What people don't declare seems and usually SHOULD be "relatively trite", but when audit time comes does it matter ?

If I get busted for taking a box of 3 condoms from CVS (without paying) because me and the other kids want to throw the water balloons at cars, and being the big baby I am, I'm too embarassed to buy them AND it seems trite enough compared to other stuff going on in the world, additionally, the expiration date on these is almost up and they would otherwise cost 5 bucks... YOU believe a court cares what I say ???   Is what I'm doing larcenous or not ? The fact it's petty isn't my call



Federal Copyright laws as I understand them aren't International law, or internationally binding, that's a DIFFERENT area of copyright, trademark or patent law. People pay for that too assuming they can protect their material in certain geographic areas.

Whether you receive a cent directly when you hand over the CD with others protected material on it in a commercial setting vs what somebody might consider a type of kickback activity, I don't know.. I'm currently involved in something where a few are being investigated for possible kickback activity..

Certain things can fall into a guise of "educational setting",  "Suckage improvement" but that's all sidewalk Atty Rhetoric as it's being used in here..

Let's say I go to my bar, slip a cassette tape into the CAVS JB system, and copy songs (that I like) to bring home to practice as a musician to improve my major suckage. Am I doing this privately ?  Sure,  is it technical legal ?  I seriously doubt it. First off, there are CLEAR CUT guidelines to what constitutes "Educational setting" within copyright law. I am not a school, or a lecturer who's a licensed educator.. I can't redefine "Educational setting".  There IS a definition as to exemption.

Private use ? Sure, It won't go any further than me but am I paying for a service I'd otherwise need to spend money for assuming "free" wasn't an option ? No,  I'm taking for free what others pay for. Can I say, BUT the JB system just happened to have a tape deck on it ?  Yeah, but Courts aren't dumb unless I'm VERY wealthy and have a great Atty behind me.. {Similarly (hypothetical example)Can a John say that he wasn't paying a prostitute for the sexual act ?  He payed her to model lingerie and in fact paid her to compensate her for the cost of her undies ?}  Probably, will anyone buy this ?  Heck no...

In copyright law, once busted, The burdon of proof shifts to the commercial user who is now the defendant and onus lies on them to show WHY they aren't guilty..   So, I take a CD from you with copyright protected material on it and it was recorded in a commercial setting in which you were getting paid.. I too am wrong because I'm taking something free (or even if I pay, YOU are not authorized to distribute) and as a result a business can say "We can't stay in business assuming small business people such as her GIVE away our material" Since others pay for home use. If all had a place to get our material like this, we'd be out've business. Still, I'm supposed to buy the backings even for home use. Courts won't give you the time of day for rhetorical defense, they just don't care what you have to say, it's what you got busted for thats wrong that gets dumped on you to now defend...

 Is warping chips in a private homes cable boxe to bring in channels you don't pay for fine because it's "private use" and you feel "I am justified in doing this because it's my determination as a smart consumer that in the confines of my home I have certain rights"?  or is it robbing services ?  Is hacking into my private colleges watts line to make calls to friends monetary beneficial to me ?  NOPE,  but it's robbing services and illegal.. Because, I still knowing am doing something for some type of gain that others must instead pay for.  Legal vs illegal just isn't our call.  What we opt to do and risks we take are.

Now if you were to rephrase this stating. "Is it likely I'd ever get prosecuted for what I'm doing ?".. or "I'm taking a chance because",  I'd say thats subjective, and individual choice.  Certainly what it appears the case is.  Many do live by their own redefined systems.  Most do at times (in real life) but this is a different subject

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Business ethics are very subjective.  People who make money often walk the fence because they can make more money ... if the laws were meant to be interpreted one way only, such as get caught driving with a BAC over .08 and you're arrested for DUI, then there wouldn't be so much chatter about digital music.  Until the law states unequivocally, absolutely no reproduction for any reason, it will be interpreted 1,000,001 different ways.  

We are in the dawn of the digital age ... it will be many years down the road before this country has worked out all the kinks in how media is used and distributed in its many formats (and bet your xss there are many different formats yet to come).  There's a reason no KJs have been hassled for 1-1 format shifting, etc.  I'm betting it has to do with judges not wanting to set the wrong precedent just to have it overturned again and again and again.  Judges have egos too.

RIAA just launched another college campus campaign to deter the illegal downloading of songs off the Internet.  An estimated 1.8 billion songs are downloaded on campuses nationwide.  Their approach has some logic to it.  These are probably the worst offenders and they're young.  Even the tobacco companies know to get the most out of someone you gotta get 'em while they're young.

I'm digital, and given the technological advances and the convenience come show time, I can't see going back to the paleolithic disc swapping routine.  I spend the time on turning the discs into zipped MP3-G, and get more bang for my buck when it counts ... at the show.

I'm of the belief that some disc swappers cling to the purposefully unintelligible laws as a reason not to swap over, whether it be from habit, the cost, or a fear of computers.  If you've ever had the pleasure of queuing up 15 singers (in advance)and simply handing off the mic to each as they come up, you know it's a vacation in Maui compared to Oklahoma City for the modern day KJ.