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Reverb or Delay?
https://mail.karaokescene.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10822
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Author:  Murlinman [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Reverb or Delay?

Just curious to how many recording artists use Delay instead of Reverb.   What makes you decide to use one over the other?

If I am understanding it right, Delay can be used to simulate Reverb and not necessarily be an Echo.

Reverb is a bunch of small reflections and Delay is a few large reflections.

Just wondering how the pro's do it as I am new to all this digital recording.

Thanks for your time, :wave:

Murlin

Author:  Catseyeview [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

It really depends on the desired effect you're trying to achieve as to which setting you'd want to use.  Basically it's your choice in how you want the fx to sound.

Not very techy but hope that helps :)

Author:  Lonman [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Depends on the song really.  SOmetime just use reverb, sometimes just a delay, sometime I will run the delay trail into a reverb.  Hundreds of other combos & effects as well.  No standard setting.

Author:  Murlinman [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

You guys are a virtual treasure trove of information  LOL

:jk:


But from an academic point of view, from doing lots of reading, both are similar, unless you use lots of delay and it will turn into an echo.

Without spending countless hours at the mixer, it is kinda hard for a newb to find examples of where reverb was used and where delay was used since the differences can be very subtile.  I was hoping for perhaps an example or two since most of you guys have like 20k songs in your library and years of experience...

I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond.  Perhaps I should have worded my query differently.  

How about an example of a song that has one or the other so my ear could differentiate one from the other...

I would not know the difference between the two... :headscratch:

Author:  Lonman [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Delay explained
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Articles/Delay/

Reverb explained
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effects/Articles/Reverb/

Comes with sample clips as well to distinguish what they are talking about.

Author:  mckyj57 [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

The best way is to use effects presets on a processor or a mixer with effects.

I like the "small room" or "plate" for basic reverb setting. For not-so-good singers, I tend to go delay-reverb with a fairly big delay time, which covers up some of their defects.

A good way to do it for people without a "golden ear" is to turn the effects level way up, so you can hear the basics of the effect. Anyone's ear can differentiate that. Then back the level down (usually ends up being about midscale for me) on the overall effects level.

For a better singer with a rich voice, try to use minimum levels of effects. For not-so-good singers or ones with a thinner voice, step up the level.

That's how I do it, anyway.

Author:  karyoker [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

The first process for recording vocal is EQ to get rid of the unwanted frequencies before applying FX. Next is compression Most dont but then I sometimes like to maximize it and bring the vocal out. Depending on the singer I then apply a combo of chorus and reverb to add richness. Same rules here applies dont over do it but with the FX off it sounds worse.  I usually associate delay with live (FX) and the delay is adjusted for the size of the room Most of the time though most aplly 1 100-150ms dry delay to thicken it up Same here uou cant hear it but off it sounds worse. Then more reverb can be added

Delay in livr sound will hurt more than help.  A long delay will give the result in that thread I had on professionbal FX  The delay was too long it works for simulating a live performance but if you go listen again the delay is a tad too long The tails were sustained to add to the auditorium effect .... The delay was actually was working against the room acoustics.

Author:  Murlinman [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Lonman U DA MAN!!

I have been searching for a laymans explanation of this stuff and all my searches have either come up with something that is miles over my head or very vague...

Harmony is a great site and explains all the other effect like compression and normalizing in terms that I can understand...

Much appreciated  :wave:


mckyj57 and karaoker...thanks guys, I am just getting into digital recording and I am having a problem understanding what all the effects do.

Knowing what order and when to use an effect is very helpful..

Thanks again guys :hi5:

Author:  Jian [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Murlinman @ 13th September 2007, 3:40 am wrote:
You guys are a virtual treasure trove of information  LOL

:jk:




How about an example of a song that has one or the other so my ear could differentiate one from the other...

I would not know the difference between the two... :headscratch:



A few example:

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp ... 2&nav=demo

Author:  karyoker [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Three or four years ago when I still had a mind I wrote this post which I will post here again.. I called it re-mastering. It has some good hints and stuff...

A good way to learn FX is play reg new mp3's and apply FX to them After while you can actually tell what Fx were applied in the studio.

Good link Jian...


Code:
The first karaoke discs were hardly more than raw recordings of amateur bands to supply music for even more amateur singers. They were mastered with minimum effects and most did not even sound like the artists commercial cd’s.  This included the background singers. As karaoke became more and more sophisticated and better singers emerged the major producers used improved techniques to improve the final product.  This included software which improved the recording process (tracking, mixing and mastering) to apply Fx during the mix down which the professionals use. (for a better understanding of different processes discussed here download the manuals using the url's at the end of this post)

 With the advent of cd’s re-mastering and techniques were developed to redo old recordings from an age that was limited by low and high frequency response and most Fx were not even invented yet. These re-mastering techniques can be applied to the older and “cheaper” karaoke discs, either during live shows or actually re-recording and mastering. Some of these methods will be discussed in this post.

 Audio processors such as the Bbe 362 and the Aphex 204 can bring life back into old recordings and also can be used to improve the quality of the karaoke discs that “need” it. The 362 separates the instruments and vocals and “blends” them for a better overall sound. The 104 (with big bottom) increases the bass without needing more power in the pa amp or taxing the bass coils. It can also pull a vocal out of the mud with the proper tweaking of the aural exciter tune and mix adjustments. There are later and more improved procs now but these were the basic pioneers. They are not hard to adjust in fact both can be used with all the controls at 12 o’clock and drastically improve the sound. They need to be properly integrated into a system observing proper gain structure and adjusting according to acoustics. Then old recordings and actually all sound is drastically improved. Thus they are essentially being used during live shows to re-master lesser quality recordings. Contrary to some beliefs they do not detract the quality of good recordings unless they are grossly mal-adjusted. Most professional recording engineers frown on their use in the mastering process but for live recorded .karaoke tracks they are limited only by talent and imagination. These methods ca also be used to re-record and re-master old mp3’s and karaoke cd’s

 Equally important but much more complex is applying Fx to different genres, situations and room acoustics.  The basic system consists of a mixer with onboard Fx and using Fx send and return thru and external such as a Microverb 4. The first step is getting a basic understanding of he different Fx (spring, plate, flange and chorus).  Then lots and lots of practice and experience must be acquired. One way is playing old recordings and different genres through the system and experimenting with different FX If a newer cd is used with Fx applying an effect will not have as much effect if it is already used  So it is possible after experience to determine which Fx were used in the original production. Then a basic idea of which ones are needed at a live show is gradually obtained. The absolute best way is recording an average to good singers’ vocal to a wav file. Then with software such as Cakewalk Home Studio, import the vocal and karaoke mp3 track and experiment with EQ and all the Fx plugins in the mix down process.  Another way is recording at a live show straight out of the mixer with all the effects applied. If they were over applied it is readily apparent when played back later. These techniques are also used when re-recording (playing back through the system and recording into a wav file) and re-mastering.

  One of the oddest aspects of this whole operation is when these techniques are applied and played back through a good system the differences are hard to detect unless the test is with lower volume and no crowd. In the heat of the moment and with crowd noise and acoustics they are sometimes not worth the time and effort. This is live re-mastering that comes with experience in all the above and applies to old mp3's for DJ and  karaoke as well.


Microverb 4 manual

Bbe 362 manual

Aphex manual]

Author:  mckyj57 [ Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Murlinman @ Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:20 pm wrote:
mckyj57 and karaoker...thanks guys, I am just getting into digital recording and I am having a problem understanding what all the effects do.


I missed the part about recording -- I was talking about live effects. I know basically nothing about recording.

You can learn the effects by:

   1. Reading the effects chapter in the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook.
   2. Getting a mixer or processor and singing into it. Play with levels.
   3. Make a recording of a "dry" vocal (one without any effects) and applying algorithms
       in your audio editor.

Author:  Murlinman [ Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

RIGHT ON!!!  Thanks guys...

More good stuff :worship:




Quote:
3. Make a recording of a "dry" vocal (one without any effects) and applying algorithms
      in your audio editor.


Ya that is what I have been trying to do.....

It has been kinda hit and miss since I had no idea what I was doing...

My approach has been kinda flakey up to this point...I would guesstimate and use SoundForge and Audacity to add 15% reverb here 20% chorus there...Then patch the edited track back into my recorder and mix it down, master it again and then shoot it back over to the PC and compress it all again...then have a listen..
Only to find that I should have use more verb and less chorus......Duh!!

Believe you me, it sounds totally different playing on Windoes Media player than it does when you listen to it on the Tascam.  My 50% hearing loss doesn't help matters....what sounds good one day sounds like crap to me the next day, once my eardrums calm down...it can be very frustrating sometimes... LOL


I bought Cakewalk Studio the other day and need to figure out how to use it so I could have a "Real Time" thing going on where I could adjust all the effects on the fly and only do one Mastering process...If there is a way to do this in Soundforge, I haven't figured out how yet...

I love messing with this stuff and trying to participate with subbing songs in the SS, but alas, there is only so much time that one can spend on a hobby at the present time...

So far out of all my subs, I have only been pleased with ONE mix.  And that one took me several trys.

But thanks for the info and the links guys, much appreciated... :wave:

Author:  mckyj57 [ Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Oe more link that helped me quite a bit when I was playing with reverb on Audacity:

 http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=GVerb

You may have already seen that, but it helped me set my starting params.

Author:  Murlinman [ Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Gverb!!!!

Hey thanks...I downloaded the rest of the plugins and got Gverb..

Wow, I guess there was nutin' wrong with the way I was trying to do this...seems like it is the natural order of things..

Man...just when ya thought there was an easy button LOL  LOL

Thanks alot dude...can't wait to try those presets they gave with Gverb and see if those will give me something closer than what I was getting.

:hi5:

Author:  bjpetroskey [ Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Here's a little more advanced technique on verb and delay....

If you are using a mixer which you are feeding outboard fx units from an aux, send your vocal to the delay processor.  Tap the delay to be equal to an eighth note and return it to another channel in the mixer.  From this return channel send the delayed vocal to the verb processor through it's own aux send and bring that back into another channel.  What you have done is put reverb on the delay.  This keeps a vocal "in front" of your mix while providing some "sonic glue" to fill out your mix.  A similar effect can be attained using the pre-delay function on some verb processors.  A good setting to start with on verb is 1.9 to 2.6 second decay time (plate or room)  Delay settings would be good starting at 35% feedback and tapping the delay time in at 1/4 note or 1/8 note.  Be sure if you are bringing fx back to new channels on your mixer that the processor is set to send out 100% wet signal.  This way you can adjust the amount of fx easily on the fx fader.  If you really wanna get crazy check out harmonizers (Eventide) and multiband compressors.  Those can be fun!

Author:  P Tucker [ Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reverb or Delay?

Cool info guys! Thanks! I was able to benefit from that Audacity link for the Gverb stuff.
I haven't used it yet, but I experimented with a recording and it seems to work as intended. I could've really used it on a couple of recent songs posted in SS.
Maybe I'll get to use it soon.

Thanks again! :oh yeah:  :wave:

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