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This is from Dummies.com at should clear up some of the problems regarding what's so misunderstood about this whole process !


Quote:
The difference between critiquing and criticizing is very important — and you don't find this difference in any dictionary. When you give a critique, you offer well-reasoned, pointed, clear criticism with an eye to possible solutions. When you criticize, on the other hand, you offer a judgment about why something is bad. Writers tend to be a sensitive lot, and a critical evaluation that is mean-spirited isn't helpful to the writer's creative process. So watch your tongue. You could be the one at the other end some day.



This is why the stigma of "negative" exists..  The Critique isn't "criticizing" the person !  It's HELPING the person to improve and a positive process !
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Well,  Rather than talk about it,  Why not have a place to do it ?

Face it,  There're excellent singers here, why limit things to "There's no room for singing help here" ?  Let's not complain that there's no Critiquing allowed. Instead Critique in here a place for those that DO wish for Critique to work.

Why not HERE.  For those that'd rather "Do" than "complain it doesn't work". The past might not've been the time for Critique to work, maybe now is.

Critique thread..  We assume responsibility for the giving and ability to receive the Critique which means "A Careful analysis of our singing".

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well, I'm open to it....I mean, if someone REALLY wants a critique, they ought to be able to get it.

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

I would be game too. (just umm... only on the songs I SAY you can)  LMAO

No, seriously, I'd love to be ripped to shreds and get some GOOD feedback, with things to change, and some ideas I could actually USE for the better. On originals, I used to get that at garageband... though I haven't posted there in a long time... people made NO bones about telling you what was good, bad, or downright ugly.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I have a song I just upload in SS. Try it on me, but do it HERE; in this thread.  :D

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

First off,  Operakitty,  since I have listened to your two submissions. I'm not avoiding Critiquing you. I lack the ability to Critique at your level in your particular styles of classical and show.  You are too advanced and accomplished for me to Critique at this point.  Part of my critique style is to admit MY OWN limitations, and tell where I come from.  A few here are musicians musicians that deserve critique of course.  BUT, this does not mean I have the ability to Critique them.

Jian, and Charmin..  I will attempt to listen to your material within the next day.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Aww...thanks.  Personally, I am not looking for a critique - at least not of anything I have up right now.  Thing is, I'll give myself a harsher critique than anyone here could possibly give me! *laugh*  I'm happy to offer whatever I can to anyone who is looking for an honest critique that I feel I am qualified to critique.



Always good to know your limits - which to me makes your critiques...blech! I know what I want to say here and yet can't seem to figure out HOW to say it!
Soprano moment....*laugh*

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

When I critique I have only ONE goal, and that's to attempt to help another in this area of the arts.  NOTHING more.  This is why the more we have sharing this process the better and more successful it will be.   What I am unable to hear, or understand due to my own limitations given my own understanding of specific genres of music, in part due to my exposure and levels of understanding, hopefully somebody such as yourself will be able to understand and help another with.

This is NOT a "negative" process.  It's the opposite !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

As I told you Steven, take your time:) My song isn't going anywhere. I'll even be a big girl and leave it up AFTER you rip it to shreds.

No, seriously, I'll try to tighten the reins on my smart aleck side for a moment (woah, Charmin...) haha

I'd love to be critiqued on some stuff that matters to me. And I honestly think it would be good for people to see that critique can be given and taken without either one of us falling off the face of the earth. (or in your case... as the "critiquer"... getting shoved off)  LMAO


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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

[quote/] When I critique I have only ONE goal, and that's to attempt to help another in this area of the arts.  NOTHING more.  This is why the more we have sharing this process the better and more successful it will be. [/quote]

Very well said.



I will certainly do what I can.  



Absolutely!

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

True,  Charmin one other thing.  It was suggested a few years back that those requesting the Critique cite specific songs, AND what it is in particular they are trying to do with the song.  IOW,  (OK What Now mentioned something important I'd never pondered),  "Are you trying to nail a cover of a song" ?  "Are you attempting to make the song your own?", what is the singers goal ?  Additionally, the party requesting a Critique should feel free to request that the listener help in specific areas that they believe should be honed in on knowing their OWN limitations at times..  IOW,  Just what does the singer wish from the experience ?   While a Critique can be general, at times there are specific things the singer wishes for us to listen for..  Requesting specifics can be mutually beneficial.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I agree. Although, there might be times when a singer might just wish to know "how am I doing on this one?"..... other times they may want specifics on certain areas.

(edited in: Freakin' a, I'm sleepy... did I just REPEAT you?) Haha

Umm.. I think I told ya my specifics already:)


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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

"Daddy's Home"-  Jian.

I'm not certain as to whether or not there's a version that utilizes a more percussive approach to the notes, but for lack of having other criteria,  I'm going to critique this in a style of Platters, Delfonic, and Jacksons.. In essence smooth and flowing duple-meter.

Since I last heard you about a year back Jian, I've noticed that your ear has improved regarding pitch matching when jumping intervals. This is an area that has become less troublesome for you.  Similarly your ability to sustain a steady and single pitch on the slower notes where the pitch must be held has improved somewhat.  (On a slower ballad such as this these are critical areas and you've made improvement).

Since I know Jian, have critiqued Jian, and know he can take non-sugar coated honesty I'm going to offer my opinion without beating around the bush. This does not mean I'd critique ALL like this, or even ANY others like this,  I'm critiquing Jian as Jian and FOR Jian.

I'd personally prefer hearing you sing this more SMOOTHLY throughout blending your words together in a more relaxed fashion not displaying the contrast you do where certain notes are just too loud and overwhelming for the mix (due to diction difficulties). I believe there are ways around these tougher areas where enunciation seems strained and comes thru the mix somewhat abrasively.

Example
You're having problems with blending certain phrases and these areas really need work, for example;
I'd like to thank you (prior to for waiting patiently) 

Relisten to that part, and smooth that area out.

Next verse, same sequence in this composition, same pitches
You are having a noticeably tough time with Your best friend wrote and told me  

These are difficult lyrics for you, they also occur at the same song pitches and what's happening is these areas are coming across harsh and strained sounding. Can you soften these areas up, trying to flow them in a similar manner to your volume and quieter singing used during the singing of "By Your Side" ?   That was excellent volume for this song, and sounded natural for you, To my knowledge, this is a soft song, meaning THE WHOLE song should be soft.  In most renditions I've heard, there's really little room for harsh phrasing in this song and significant contrast in lyrical content volume.. Perhaps using slightly more headvoice for this song to flow it gently when singing the tougher phrases will blend things for you, try even humming the melodic line getting an idea of a smooth soft presentation prior to adding the words to these harsher areas...  Try to keep ALL your lyrics at the SAME volume or around where you were singing the chorus "Daddy's home, Daddy's home, to stay"...

Think Lullabye meaning singing a child to bed style here !
Try to relax your mouth, sing it in lullabye style trying to eliminate tension whenever possible.

Can you re-do this in a more RELAXED sounding smoother style, relaxing your mouth, backing away from the microphone in hopes of maintaining a more even volume ?.. Soften the WHOLE song.  Pitch matching is good, but too much contrast in lyrics and phrase dynamics for this type song...think soft and quiet song..TRY to match what you were doing when you were singing "By your side".  I liked THAT volume for this song..Attempt keeping the song uniformly soft..  Perhaps try humming the song without lyrics to get your smooth flow, but back off the microphone when straining and sounding percussive during "like", also keep "Eye" as one word, the first "eye-eye" didn't work.

Granted these ARE difficult areas given our languages differences, and how diction gets difficult but when there's a strenuous phrase approaching, or tension and constriction generated from you during certain parts of a song, don't overwhelm the mix, instead back off from the microphone. distance. I'd really like to here the WHOLE song as you sang the smooth soft phrase "By your side". Try to find a way to blend your notes together more softly. Try not to step on your mix over the microphone with strong consonance during difficulties given tension in form certain words, but work on applying less percussive attacks on notes.  While there may be inflection difficulties given language differences I believe you can still smooth this out..

Your ear for pitch matching has showed overall improvement,  your vibrato is decent, but in too many areas you are sounding uncomfortable and too percussive so I'd think it best for you to back off the microphone somewhat during this type song and think EVEN soft Lullabye type volume..

This is just MY opinion.    Think Lullabye !  Assuming you had no difficulties with diction I believe you should STILL soften this up to the same volume where you sang "by your side", I believe that within itself would lend itself to significant improvement for you.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Thanks Steven.  :worship:

There are 3 ver. of the song. I have been listening to one of the ver for a few weeks now and just started to singalong with it. The backing is a different ver. from what I am used to.

I have huge problem with  Your best friend wrote and told me; even speaking it out is a problem. I will however overcome this by just singing/speaking that line over and over.

Vocal level and vol: That is more of a recording problem. I use those pc mic that hook up with the headphone and have to move the mic up and down to prevent the mic from clipping.

I hope to improved enough to sing this song by this week end.

Thanks again.


I just wish more people are open to critiquing. There is no better way to improve than being told where you are wrong.... only then can you right the wrong.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,  Yes,  the consonant areas of our language are VERY difficult for you, this is known.  I wish I could convey ways around this.. I have and could in person, it would mean leaving certain consonants off've certain words, and using tricks.. I've heard Philipino vocalists do these things VERY often, amazing little tricks to overcome diction differences..  Try humming thru the song, relax the song, low volume... I WISH I could convey the tricks to make certain 'L", and "B" and "R" consonants easier for you.. maybe even there's a way you can cheat and mimic them ??


Jian can this work for you ?  Try relaxing your mouth and saying that verse with your teeth closed the whole time ?  Try to come NEAR the phrase,  don't try to nail it, I don't think you can..  Try to impersonate it comfortably !




I don't like using words such as "wrong", or any negative words..  They aren't WRONG,  they are areas that will improve with practice to make the individual a better singer in MY opinion !!!!  Areas that are tough exist for ALL, perhaps a trained vocalist will have great ideas for you as to how diction issues can be overcome with mouth positioning.  Solfege and certain voice techniques help singers with this.. I'm not trained in these areas, but this is how we ALL can pitch in to help one-another. There are mouth positioning exercizes !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Broken Hearted Me-  Charmin


Well,  I have some good news, and some bad news..
If you don't tell me that you were attempting to nail a cover version of Anne Murrays song, I won't tell you the bad news !

OK,  I pictured Coffee house, or sitting around a camp fire setting.   Guitar playing was steady, and quite pleasant.  Singing was good too, sounded fine with the guitar playing since one complemented the other in this song.  Only suggestion I'd make would be to sing this softer, backing the vocals down a little, same with the reverberation.  Singing this softer in my opinion would enhance this particular song IMO, but it might even be a matter of just using a different microphone. Not sure what your setup was, were you using just one microphone for vocals and guitar ? Do you think you'd have benefitted from a better vocal microphone in this case ?  Guitar cut thru fine..   The mix could've used some tweaking.

You made this song your own, musicianship was fine. I'd remix it mic'ing your vocals better but also singing it softer.

JMO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

is this a private party or can the witch join in?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

The door is open; and all are welcome.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Sorry, Steven Kaplan, I'm not accepting that:)  LMAO

(i'm calling your bluff)

I expected you to tear it up word by word.

What parts of the lyrics sound stupid? (overly mushy and girlie... too blah-blah... too hard for someone other than the writer to connect with)

In my opinion, the whole melody was a bit too blase' and repetitive. Even the bridge only used two of the main chords in the song. I did throw in an Em in a few places, and an Am once in the chorus, but IMO they were ill placed and didn't change the melody enough to be hardly noticed and make a difference in the all over tune.

IMO, again, I don't think my voice is suited to these kinds of slow, sappy songs. I'm more more suited to singing "in your face, honky tonk" style music. I think I sound like a little kid vocal when I sing stuff like this. (that should... sound emotional... not make me sound like a weenie on the mic)

One other gripe I have... of course you would not know this, unless you heard a handful of my others... is that my songs tend to be (while not the same..) at least flavored with the same type melody.  I hate to "strum" a guitar, I save that for when I'm following someone else (usually a fiddle) and so you get one of a few finger picking rythms that tend to sound like the LAST song I wrote.

Anne Murray? You gotta spill whatever you're holding back, cause I didn't understand that.



Someone else in a comment mentioned her, so she must have a song with the same title, or close to it. (??) So I'll have to go searching.

I would never compare myself to her vocally... if that's what you mean. I think we're on pretty opposite planets vocal-wise. Actually, I like to think I have a voice of my own, albeit flavored with influences from a few different singers... just cause I've listened to them so much over the years. (but please... whatever that bad news was... say it dang it all... cause I didn't find anything here by you that I would deem anywhere near bad news)

I told ya I was a tough guy.. so lemme have it:)  LOL


Errrr... it is. I thought I mentioned that? So how could it not sound like it is?



Fine would be too strong of a word. Maybe "adequate" to pull off such a simple song would be a better phrase.

Mic= New condenser I'm trying out for the first time. I'm sure I had the levels all wrong. That will come with time, practice, and (god give me some) patience.

Mixer= Probably all set wrong to the mic too.

Guitar= My sons Washburn, not the best, but certainly had the best set of strings on it of the guitars currently in my house, so I used it. Just a bit too big of a neck.. big enough to make my fingers fumble here n' there.

Effects= I had trouble with that. I musta mixed in reverb and echo and taken them off and changed them 10 times... before I just called that part done.

Funny you say to "sing it softer". I upped the key a half step (capo'd 1) and tried to put a little more into it vocally cause someone told me I needed to sound "angrier" on the bridge. And I can't put much vocally into a song if it's in too low of a key for me...

(and ummm... was my vocal too loud?)

Vicki... if you're meaning on both these songs, mine & Jians both, I'd personally LOVE to hear some more:)

Steven, now I'm depressed that maybe you didn't feel the song worthy of tearing apart. In this instance, a tougher critique would have been better than an easy one like you gave.

Yeah, the more I think about it..... Jian got a "critique", I got more of a "pass you by" type comment. Steven, really, tell me if you think it flat stinks. I don't care, hell, it's just one more original song I wrote- I have lots, some are better than others, some sound retarded. Gosh, there are a few people here (not that they'd recall) but who have heard atleast 5 of my original songs... I subbed some more of them a couple years or so ago.

Is it maybe the "absence" of a band coupled with the fact that it is an original that make it hard for you to do? I mean, I know that's not typically the genre you delve into either. Perhaps I should have done something you could "compare" to? (sheeshh... I forgot your challenge to do "Strong Enough" by Sheryl Crow... ) But I'm thinking maybe I should have waited to join in the=is thread on a song that people actually KNOW and can easier disect?


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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Not the case at all.  Jian got a Critique on singing a song I'm somewhat familiar with.  I listened to two of three other renditions to help me decide what it was *I* believed he could do to help improve his own singing of a song I've heard before quite a few times. I was using originals as reference points (and since Jian specified no particular area for me to listen for, and left the critiquer a broader area for observation and opinion) I critiqued Jian as essentially singing "A cover" version.  Jian didn't specify whether or not he wished to make this particular song his own style, however even had he stated that, I did hear some difficulties.  Jian was singing a song and there were some very noticeable areas that could stand tweaking.

You however Charmin were not just singing but playing your own backing and doing an ORIGINAL.. I mentioned "coffee house", or informal "Sitting around a campfire" type visual that I got for this songs setting..  What I can not do, nor do I have a right to do is start judging peoples originals and ripping THEIR particular songs to shreds when in fact the guitar playing and musicianship sounds *FINE* to me.. The purpose of a Critique IMHO is not to rip into a person for the sake of knocking them down.. That's what makes the process negative.. The purpose of a critique also IS NOT to knitpick areas that might subjectively be areas that the composer wished to go for an affect I just wasn't noticing. I have NO RIGHT to rip into an original for the sake of ripping a person, that's not a critique.. This was YOUR song, it was an original, I have no reference points or means of comparison for your song put to your own guitar playing, (and singing of your material) which to me sounds technically accurate given folk ballad type style.  HOW and why would I wish to rip "YOUR SONG" to shreds ?  My opinion is just that.. Remember, a critique of an original is EXTREMELY subjective as are most critiques,  they aren't carved in stone, they aren't right or wrong in most cases, they are OPINIONS. The purpose of the critique is to be beneficial, there was NOTHING to rip to shreds... there was nothing I had a right ot analyse to death either...  Not ALL critiques need to be essays, the song sounded *fine* to me, the mix needed much work.. It didn't sound polished, but you might not've been going for *that* type final recording finesse, not all performances do, nor do they have to, there are different settings and moods in music.   Again, I mentioned think "Coffee house" informal type setting...  That's fine too..

Now that I know you were using one condenser microphone for both guitar and vocals, I can say THAT was a problem..but digital recording and uploading to music via computers is not an area I have knowledge in.  You would've benefitted from balancing a SEPARATE vocal microphone with amplifying or mic'ing your guitar and blending them both more tastefully.  MY own feelings on the song is that singing it softer and LESS aggressive would've made the message more emotionally poignant..  THat's MY OWN feelings however..  The only thing I noticed that I felt could stand some improvement would've been spending more time on you vocal levels, dropping them back somewhat..and using either a BETTER reverberation, or perhaps recording means.  Perhaps an SM-58 would've taken care of even that problem of your vocals. You might've been trying to compensate for your setup by positioning yourself a certain way that created an imbalance in recording volumes between voice and guitar since you only used one microphone, uploading via computer is not an area I have knowledge with.. I would've preferred hearing a better balance with less present vocals, or more laid back emotional vocals in YOUR song..

JMO..

The critique was exactly what I wished to leave without knowing how you were amplifying your voice AND the guitar..  It sounded good musically, unpolished and rough recording-wise however.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

If anybody wants "ripping to shreds" I'm not the guy who'll do it.  While I've received A LOT of the drill Sgt type critiques in my day knocking me far down, I don't see how such a Critique can benefit ANYBODY in an internet setting.. When I received that type of Critique it was because I had become really arrogant, unpolished, stubborn, was not practicing because I though I knew it all, and I needed to perform a polished version of a piece within a short time... The people critiquing me DID NOT want me performing what sounded awful and I was too dense to reach any other way during that time..  but that was also NOT an internet setting. That had more to do with MY OWN attitude, and lack of respect that created what some felt to be a need to slap me around and shape me up somewhat...It was a psychological ploy,  that's not what THIS type setting is about IMHO..  

I try to critique and HELP,  I try to be positive.. I have limited knowledge (as do we all), and wish to be open minded when I critique too realizing I MIGHT very well not be accurate in terms of what MOST would prefer hearing in an area of aesthetics.. The person critiquing might NOT be correct.. but their opinion SHOULD be honest and focused.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".