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Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
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Author:  taj [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
We just finished a fairly elaborate home theater and were thinking about running a Karaoke system through the main amplifier and speakers.  

Thankfully we read this forum first and have decided to buy a seperate system.

Our theater has a nice stage and the room is about 20' by 30'.

My wife and I would like to be able to sing duets so two mics will be necessary.  I am totaly new to this except for a crappy all in one system we bought from a local department store.

1. The system does not have to be mobile - but it can be.
2. Would like to stay around the $500 range but will pay more if that is what it takes to get a reasonably good system.
3. Cordless mics would be nice - I don't mind buying them seperate if that is what it takes to get good ones.
4. Our voices are marginal at best - so we will need a system that gives us a little help.
5. I have extra component video cables prewired to a monitor on the back side of the room - so it would be nice to have a system that would output to component.  I could run the video through our Home Theater receiver if necessary.  I think it converts just about anything to component.
6. We want to be able to record our singing so we can hopefully improve.  I am open to getting it included with the system or just buying something seperate.
7. I think an all-in-one would be nice if there is some quality there - but we won't limit ourselves if there is a better way to go.

Help us O'great ones.  Our voices are at your mercy.

Taj
Author:  mckyj57 [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
You will get different answers than mine, to be sure. But I believe that you can use your current amp with DJ speakers and a mixer and get the best bang for your buck. That is assuming your home theater amp has at least a 120W/ch RMS stereo output and has speaker A/B capabiliity so you can wire in the speakers right. (Ignore their claim of "1000W to seven speakers", find out what the left-right drive off Speaker B in stereo mode.)

If you buy the MTX TP-112 it will be competitive with low-end PA speakers for sound and volume, and it has normal speaker-wire connections to connect to the B channel of your amp. (They also have 1/4" in case you later move to a powered mixer or PA amp.) 120W drives them fine.  Add a small mixer like the Behringer 1202 FX and you will have some effects. If you spend a little more on the mixer, go for one with some aux sends/monitor sends so you can later do a monitor speaker if you want to really rock.

You won't find decent twin wireless mics for less than $350 in my opinion. People are raving about the AKG dual "presenter" at that price. You can get relatively inexpensive wired mics that blow away any cheap wireless, so if you have a stage then I would just go with those. You would end up spending all your budget on the mics, and the Behringer XM8500 gives you a competent wired mic for $20. You could then later add wireless mics without compromising vocal quality.

The problem will be the player. If you already have a PC for multimedia, you can use that with Winamp and plugins. If you are planning on going with CDs, then you have to add $200 to your budget for the player. I can't make a recommendation there, as I don't use one.

If you decide to not use your current amp, then I would recommend a small powered mixer like the Behringer PMH-2000, the PHM-1000, or the PMH880s on the higher powered side. They have effects and EQ, and plug in to normal PA speakers. Get one with a monitor output, as long as you are spending the money.  I like the Behringer PMP3000 for its insert inputs, since that would allow you to get a higher-end vocal processor should you really go nuts over this stuff like I have.

As for helping your voice, you will want the effects/reverb for that issue, so think about those when you buy your mixer.

(Some people here don't like Behringer products, but I have been looking at a lot of stuff for a couple of years now, and in my opinion nothing else offers the same price/performance. I own two Behringer powered mixers, two mics, two passive speakers, two powered speakers, and a couple of signal processing units. All have performed well, and my system blows people away with its sound. Read the reviews.)
Author:  Steven Kaplan [ Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
Quote:
Would like to stay around the $500 range but will pay more if that is what it takes to get a reasonably good system.



Home theatre systems are designed for a different application and a type of sensitivity, separation or "Fidelity" needed to recreate playback materials wider frequency margin.  PA speakers are designed to push more volume, and handle more powerful input yet they lack in sensitivity needed for home audio purposes.

You haven't let us know what your home components currently are, but regardless, since you are willing to "pay more" to get a reasonably good system a few hundred more will enable you to do-so.  For that sized room given todays technology the system can be relatively small and even portable.  I wouldn't start "messing around" with a decent home theatre system but again,  we don't know what you have for a system either.

I wouldn't bother with the cordless microphones for your purposes at this point. You can do OK with Shure PG's or less costly sufficient microphones.  Put the money into a decent PA system instead..  Many of the mail-order music stores have closeout systems, if you trust somebody perhaps a decent secondhand system would suffice

ADDED IN:

What *I* do for home use regarding Karaoke is different than what most will do.  I run the music thru the Home System, and sing thru a separate PA.  If I wish to record it that eventually dumps down to the home theatre system that I have the Tascam recorder wired into, but I just mix down to that.

Problem is more than your voices are at the mercy of certain advice.  Your home theatre systems well-being might be at mercy too depending on what you do, or do not have, and how you go about running into it, (if at all).
Author:  taj [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
We have the Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver.  It's apparently only 90 watts per channel but it seems to have plenty of power.

Also, we have a brand new Sony laptop sitting around that nobody is using.

I will definitely go with the wired mics for now.  The economics versus performace thoughts were much much appreciated mckyj57 and steve.

Thank you very much for your comments.  I will research this more today.

http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX- ... s=Receiver
Author:  mckyj57 [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
taj @ Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:33 am wrote:
We have the Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver.  It's apparently only 90 watts per channel but it seems to have plenty of power.

I am afraid it is not really enough to drive any good-sounding PA speakers that I know of.  I would recommend going the powered mixer route. You could try it with the TP-112 speakers, and then if you don't blow them out and don't like the sound you could move to a powered mixer.

Quote:
Also, we have a brand new Sony laptop sitting around that nobody is using.

That solves your player problem. You can get by with Winamp and the CDG/MP3+G plugin (and Pacemaker) for now.

Quote:
I will definitely go with the wired mics for now.  The economics versus performace thoughts were much much appreciated mckyj57 and steve.

Thank you very much for your comments.  I will research this more today.

http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=TX- ... s=Receiver

Look at one of the powered mixers. The Behringer PMH880S is only $250, and it will do real well for you. Or the PMH1000 for $220. Combine that with $300 worth of speakers, cables, and mics, and you will have a rocking system that will do real karaoke.
Author:  adam2434 [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
I'm also home audio/theater enthusiast and fairly recent home Karaoke hobbyist, so might have some relevant input.

I agree with the recos to get a powered mixer (or separate amp and mixer), some smallish PA speakers (single 10" or 12" woofer), and some decent wired mics.  You could do this for $600-700.  Behringer equipment would get you in that price range.

JBL has some speakers that are supposedly made for Karaoke vocals that you can get for $240/pair on-line.  RM10 is the model, I believe.  

Similar to what a previous poster mentioned, I run my vocals to a mixer/amp/speakers and send the Karaoke music to my home audio/theater system.  This has a couple benefits:
1) Allows me to split the load of vocals and music between 2 systems (this would not be necessary with a really nice, powerful PA system).    
2) Depending of what home speakers you have, the Karaoke music could sound much better on your home speakers vs. PA speakers.  This is especially true if you have nice full range home speakers and a nice sub vs. small, relatively inexpensive PA speakers.  So far, the PA speakers I’ve heard in the $300-500/pair range do not sound as good as comparably priced home speakers for music in a home environment.  
3) It’s really nice to be able to control the Karaoke music level with your receiver’s remote.  There is a lot of variation in music level song-to-song and dics-to-dics.  

Also, I think that going the PC route is the right way to go right off the bat.  That way, you can transfer your songs to PC as you acquire them vs. amassing a number of CD+Gs, then having the daunting task of transferring them to PC.  It didn’t take me too long to realize that swapping CD+G discs in and out is a pain.  I’m thinking of going the laptop route myself.
Author:  DannyG2006 [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
As long as your laptop has dual display capability through s-video or RCA outs then going PC will save you money. As to music checkout www.tricerasoft.com for downloads of specific songs rather than worrying about converting off of discs.
They even have a free player with a way to purchase songs through a kiosk type format.  If you want a more professional player they have a player that only costs $24.95 to buy, good if you decide to invite friend over for a karaoke party.
Author:  taj [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
Okay, here is my shopping list so far:

1. Powered Mixer - Behringer PMH880S at $250
2. Speakers - two MTX TP-112 at $208 (both)
3. Mics - two Behringer XM8500 at $40 (both)

Questions:
1. What kind of wiring should I order?
2. My Sony laptop does not have Winamp.  It has interVideo WinDVD.  Do I need to buy a software program(s)?
3. Is the PMH880S comparible to the Behringer PMP3000 in features except power?  We really need help for our voices.
4. Does the Behringer PMH880S have a monitor output?
5. What do I need the monitor output on the mixer for?  Does the computer video just run into the mixer?  Hopefully it outputs to component if this is the way it works.
6. Do we need a seperate vocal processor?  If so, does the Behringer PMH880S accomodate this?
7. I looked at the JBL RM10's and they were more pricey for a smaller woofer (10" versus 12").  Also, at 8 ohms the MTX speakers (300 watts) fell right in the range with the  Behringer mixer (200watts).  I know sometimes bigger is not necessarily better.  Any opinions on a comparison for these speakers?

Thanks for being so patient with us.

Taj
Author:  mckyj57 [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
taj @ Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:56 pm wrote:
Okay, here is my shopping list so far:

1. Powered Mixer - Behringer PMH880S at $250
2. Speakers - two MTX TP-112 at $208 (both)
3. Mics - two Behringer XM8500 at $40 (both)

Questions:
1. What kind of wiring should I order?


That is best answered with the manual for the PMH880S, which is at:

  http://www.behringer.com/pmh880s/

Turns out you will need Speakon to 1/4" to hook to the TP-112, or if you switched to the
B212 Speakon-Speakon.

For a short run, 14gauge speaker cables should be good enough. For less than 25 feet at your power levels, you could actually use 16ga without trouble....

The mics are just standard XLR cables. I recommend going to Guitar Center and buying LiveWire or Hosa lifetime guarantee cables -- it is worth it.

Quote:
2. My Sony laptop does not have Winamp.  It has interVideo WinDVD.  Do I need to buy a software program(s)?

Winamp is free, but you can get the "Pro" version for $20 and avoid the ads.  Pacemaker is nagware, and you pay $10 to get rid of the startup button press.

Quote:
3. Is the PMH880S comparible to the Behringer PMP3000 in features except power?  We really need help for our voices.

It has the same effects. It doeesn't have quite as many outputs and inputs, and it only has one monitor send. Then again, it is $150 less.

Quote:
4. Does the Behringer PMH880S have a monitor output?

Yes, one.

Quote:
5. What do I need the monitor output on the mixer for?  Does the computer video just run into the mixer?  Hopefully it outputs to component if this is the way it works.

No, we are not talking video here -- monitor speaker. That is so the vocalist can hear themselves better. In actual practice in most home situations, you can just point the mains slightly at the singer and you won't need a monitor/foldback speaker. But it is helpful to the singer to hear themselves better.

The other thing you can do with a monitor output is use it to route channels to an external effects processor and return them into a line input.

You wouldn't be using a monitor speaker to begin with -- but it is a nice capability to have, and if you are spending money you should think about things like that.

Quote:
6. Do we need a seperate vocal processor?  If so, does the Behringer PMH880S accomodate this?

The internal effects should be sufficient. They aren't studio quality, but are not too bad. The 880 doesn't accomodate it like the PMP3000 does, because it doesn't have the insert input.

Quote:
7. I looked at the JBL RM10's and they were more pricey for a smaller woofer (10" versus 12").  Also, at 8 ohms the MTX speakers (300 watts) fell right in the range with the  Behringer mixer (200watts).  I know sometimes bigger is not necessarily better.  Any opinions on a comparison for these speakers?

If you are going with the powered mixer, I would pick the JBLs over the MTX TP-112. Or the Behringer B212, which you can get for $150 apiece. The MTX are OK, but the major reasons I recommended them initially was 1) wire terminals to hook easily to a stereo HT amp, and 2) are driven well with 120w/ch. They sound good, too, which I consider a requirement. There are other cheap speakers, but I wouldn't recommend them.

Good luck! If you spend the $600 or so you are looking at here (including cables) you will have a kicking karaoke setup! Don't forget at least one mic stand to make your stage look cool. 8-)
Author:  adam2434 [ Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
I'll try to answer some of your questions, but some of the answers will depend on how you want to configure things.

If the mics do not come with cables, you will need XLR-XLR cables of the appropriate length to connect the mics to the powered mixer.

You will also need to decide how/where you want to send the Karaoke music.  If you plan to use the equipment you mentioned for vocals and music.  Assuming the mixer does not have a USB/digital input, you will likely need to send music from either the 1/8" headphone/line out to the mixer's RCA CD inputs or 2 1/4" inputs.  This may be OK, but the analog output from most PCs is not very good.  The other option would be to send the audio digitally through USB (or SPDIF if the PC has it) to an external sound card/dac.  From there, you would send analog audio to the same RCA CD inputs or 1/4" inputs.

If you want to use your home theater for the music, the same analog RCA connections from the PC would apply.  However, your receiver may have a USB input that would accept digital audio from the PC, which would be the best route in this case, and would eliminate the need for an external sound card.

Winamp is freeware, I believe.  So is the plug-in for playing Karaoke.  If you plan to rip from CD+G discs, you will also need a program like audiograbber (which I believe is also freeware) to rip the songs into mp3+g.  You will also need to make sure your PC's drive is capable of ripping the graphics.  My knowledge is limited on this, so I'm sure other folks will correct me or provide additional info.

The PC's video will go directly to the video monitor/TV.  Your options will likely be S-video or VGA.  I'd plan for VGA if you have a front projector.
Author:  Keith02 [ Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
Stop.......consider this.

Karaoke is TWO things......It is a mix of PRECORDED music with LIVE vocals mixed in....and THAT fact makes it hard for even the best KJ's to do with the BEST equipment.

So let's break it down.......

It is a fact (in small venues and living rooms)that PRECORDED music plays best thru home audio style equipment, and LIVE vocals work best thru pro level stage gear, right?

Right.......

So blend the two.

How do you do that?

Easy.

Patch your CDG player into your home audio and home audio speakers to play the music.....After all, CDG players are designed to output at consumer/home audio levels like all CD players, huh?....Then reinforce only the vocals thru live audio gear.

How do you do that?....Simple, you add a minimum PA system that only reinforces the vocals.

Live bands do this all the time.

Many small club bands use their 'backline' instrument amps to amp their guitars and keyboards and only use the PA to voice their vocals....Their drums don't need mic'ed cause the place is so small.

So ok, add a decent pair of stage speakers and a small mixer/amp for the vocals, then  go for it....Set the home system at prefered sound level and leave it....then control vocals at mixer/amp.

With only vocals coming thru the PA, you will need very little power and speaker size and the vocals will really stand out and also, you will have lots of control.
Author:  adam2434 [ Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
Keith02, that's exactly what I and someone else suggested.  That is what I do for my home Karaoke (except that my vocal speakers are also home speakers until I kill them) and really like the overall sound quality and flexibility it provides.

And, it does let you get buy with smaller (less expensive) PA speakers and power for the PA equipment, since it is only handling the vocals.

The only thing I will add, which I already mentioned, is that doing it this way also allows you to conveniently adjust the music level with the home receiver's remote, as the music level can vary significantly track-to-track.
Author:  mckyj57 [ Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
While the combo approach certainly can work, there is a downside:

  * If you have a party with lots of people, you need the speakers up high to make the sound cut through the people. This is easy to do with PA speakers on stands.

  * You are giving up on the idea of taking karaoke mobile, i.e. to a friends house or a picnic or banquet. It is much easier to transport a PA-only system.

Both of those in my experience are fairly common things to have happen -- at least for me.
Author:  adam2434 [ Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
mckyj57 @ Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:22 am wrote:
While the combo approach certainly can work, there is a downside:

  * If you have a party with lots of people, you need the speakers up high to make the sound cut through the people. This is easy to do with PA speakers on stands.

  * You are giving up on the idea of taking karaoke mobile, i.e. to a friends house or a picnic or banquet. It is much easier to transport a PA-only system.

Both of those in my experience are fairly common things to have happen -- at least for me.


Yep, even in the combo approach, I would recommend getting the vocal speakers to about ear level while standing.

Well, I don’t thinking you are giving up on the idea of mobile Karaoke.  You will still have a complete PA system that could be used for vocals and music simultaneously...just need an audio connection from the PC (or some other source) directly into the powered mixer.

Another consideration about the combo approach is that you won't be able to record the music and vocal mix together, since they're not mixed in one component.
Author:  taj [ Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help Us O'Great Ones - Our Voices Are At Your Mercy
For what we have in this system, we can get all the equipment listed and try it both ways - as a stand alone and with the background coming through the home theater system.  Whatever sounds best will be our primary set-up.  We have well over $1000 invested in built in home theater speakers and a sub so it won't hurt to try.  There may have to be some adjustments since I like for movie blasts to shake the house.

I like the idea of getting the Behringer B212 speakers to keep all the stuff similar.  Looks like they can be purchased for $120 each.  Do these usually come with speaker stands?

We are still confused about the recording part.   Will the PC and software somehow be used for that or do we need to get something else?

Also, I'm curious about what a vocal processor will do beyond a power mixer and how much they cost.  

Thanks again for all the great information.

Taj
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