Karaoke Forums

Hello all! I'm a relatively new member, but I have lurked on this forum for years getting TONS of useful information. I have been a full-time KJ for about 6 years, but I have come across a problem that is frustrating me.

I recently started at a new venue that used to be a restaurant, but is now a neighborhood "bar and grill" type. It holds about 150-200 people.

Here's my problem: The place has ceramic tile floors and a 30ft. metal ceiling. The echo and reverberation are atrocious! I have tried various eq settings, etc. to try and alleviate the problem with very little luck.

Some of my regular singers form other venues have come in and been very dissapointed with the sound. I set up on a small stage with acoustic foam all around it, which helps a little, but not nearly enough. Everything just sounds echo-y and muddy.

Here is my equipment list, so maybe someone here has some advice on how to make the sound a little better:

Mackie DFX12 mixer
Peavey dual 15 band EQ
dbx 266xl comp
Peavey X-over
2 QSC amps
2 Yamaha 15 inch mains
2 Behringer 18 subs
1 Peavey 12 powered floor monitor
SM-58 and Sennheiser 835 corded mics
Sennheiser Freeport wireless mic


I have tried some speaker placement changes, but the place is kind of a weird shape ( "L" shaped). Would putting the speakers closer to the floor help?


Thank you in advance for any help.


Dave

I would almost put 2 more speakers in - 2 in front, 2 in back.  This way you get more speaker coverage without having to turn up as loud & use less effects in the vocals (may not need them).

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If you go to any pro site you find out the hardest place for acoustics is church (high cathedaral ceilings and odd shapes are the hardest. An ell shaped is one of the hardest.. With a high ceiling it is almost imparitive to hang the speakers about 10 feet and angled down at 45 degrees. An ell shaped would require the speakers on the 90 degree portion at the proper angle and distance from the vertex or ninety degree point.  Experiment with speakers on stands ( a speaker usually has a 90 degree dispersal so splay the walls accordingly The stage area should be in the vertex.. It is a challenge but not that hard when you learn what speaker angles do. Depending upon the length of the ells  and crowd density the hardest part would be bass your main advantage is hard tile floors ..

Also Lonnies advice is as usual very productive (at my age he still has golden ears and might even know more about acoustics than I do we would make a team!!!) The second speakers should be opposite the vertex on the ends of the ells. But you will get some strange reverbs...

 In a jukebox setup I would hang speakers on the adjacent vertex walls angled down at strategic distances. Multiple low watt speakers versus high watt 2 speaker systems in a strange shape is required..

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Hanging the speakers was one option I was considering. Another venue I work has done that and the results are impressive, although that venue doesn't have the acoustical problems. I'm beginning to think the biggest problem is the "L" shaped room. This is such a cool venue otherwise. I guess some acoustic research and physics experiments are in order! I do sometimes feel like I'm playing in a church (soundwise, of course).

This advice is absolutely right on.

I ran into this in one of my clubs in the Twin Cities. The room was approximately square, with a church type vaulted ceiling which was about 20 feet to the peak. My normal speakers and sound system sounded terrible, with echo, and mudiness no matter how I adjusted it.

I did some research on the web and eventually found that the advice from professional sound people that did church systems made the most sense. I then researched speaker systems, and found that the Electro-Voice FR12-2 speakers were designed specifically for these types of venues. They have a 12" woofer with a 100 degree X 100 degree dome tweeter. The most important thing about these speakers is they have a basically flat response. These are older speakers, and I bought a used set on Ebay for $200.


I mounted the speakers just below the peak of the ceiling facing down at approximately 20 degrees. Essentially you need to look at the space and project where the sound will go. You can get engineering info on most good quality speakers that will show the actual sound projection. The speakers are basically side by side (a couple of feet between them). They angle outward at about 15 degrees. Many people have trouble with speakers being placed this close together, but in a venue with these accoustical problems, separation is an enemy...this isn't a home stereo, you don't need stereo separation.

The end result was a sound quality that was better than any of my other speakers and venues. This eliminated the echo, mudiness and actually gave me better mix control than my road system.

This actually led me to change my road speakers to Electro Voice SXa-250's, I was so impressed with the Electro Voice sound quality.

Here's a link to engineering data on the FR12-2 speakers:

http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/S ... %20EDS.pdf

Did you use subs with them as well? I'm guessing the placement of the subs i not nearly as important, correct?

I never considered mounting the speakers so high up, but it does sound logical now that I think about it. I am a little hesitant, though, about permanently mounting my own speakers in a venue I'm only at twice a week.

What about the weird room shape? Would I need two sets of high-mounted speakers (one set on each leg of the "L")? Another issue is that potential seating is not equal on each leg of the "L". One leg holds about twice as many people as the other.

I rarely use subs for karaoke. Good quality speakers will give enough bass punch if adjusted right. The thing is, bass carries fine. You don't need the projection with the bass, so you could put them most anywhere. The key is good quality horn tweeters with decent projection angles. The better quality horn tweeters can be driven a little higher without "screeching" or distorting. The mids are important too. Once you get up above the people and obstructions, you have control over the projection of the sound. You direct it back down, rather than trying to get over stuff. With the right placement you can overcome any reflective surfaces. That's why it's important to aim your speakers away from the walls when they are on stands. If you know the angle of the horns, you can make the wall part of the projection of the sound, rather than have it reflect into the wall and bounce back to the room. That's what causes echo and distortion.

One thing that I found out is that most "professional" speakers have poor high frequency projection. This is really the critical element, because that's what makes it sound like the music died 15 feet from the speakers. If you stand at the other end of the room, and it sounds like you need to turn the volume up, but when your close to the speakers it sounds loud, then you need better high frequency horns. You can overcome this by running separate horns and a crossover, but there are speakers out there that are capable of doing it without that.

As far as the room shape, you would probably want one speaker a little further off center to get the sound into the leg of the L. If placed right, it will fill the main room and project down the L.

Honestly, since I switched to Electro Voice for my mains, I have done a number of different venues with different shaped rooms and been able to place the speakers on stands and get great sound. You might want to check them out. The ones I have are powered, but they make them without power too. I tested them against the Mackies and JBL's and there really was no comparision.

As far as mounting speakers permanently, the place that I have mine I only do once a week. They are just mounted on chains and would take less than a half an hour to take down. Plus, I only paid $200 for them.

One easy way to figure the placement out is to get info on the speakers you intend to use, and then make a sketch of how the sound will project at different angles. You can then see how to limit it hitting the tile floor, walls and also figure out how to get the most push down the L.

Its been awhile since we have used s sub although this is in the rack. Actually a 104,..And most of the big clubs here will let us use their sound system.

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None of the three clubs I do has their own sound system, although two of them have their own speakers (JBL SR series 3-ways at one and 2 Peavey 215s at the other). Both will put out more bass than just 2 15 inch speakers, therefore I'm using the subs at the third venue. I have a BBE 882i that I use at one venue. Perhaps getting another one would be beneficial for my "acoustic nightmare" show.

One other thing--- if I were to mount some 12 inch speakers very high up, how do you get them down without killing yourself? Ladders and I don't get along very well (fear of heights)

Is there any way at all to accomplish my goal without having the speakers waaaayyy up high? Like Lonman's idea of having more speakers all at a lower volume? That might be easier for me to do than the "speakers from God" method.

I put them up on a ladder. Was a little bit difficult, but had help.

I don't think adding speakers will help you with this problem. I tried that. I had three sets of speakers at one point. The best sound I got was when I added some small Bose speakers on top of my normal cabinets on the stands. The reason this sounded better was they were high enouch to get over the crowd. The improvement was marginal. Adding more speakers at the same level made the sound worse.

The three problems you describe will not go away with a standard set-up. You have to get the sound were you want it without reflecting.

You might try some smaller speakers mounted above.

I found someone to help with the mounting. The mounting itself won't be much of a problem, as the venue has numerous metal trusses throughout. Will 10 ft. high be high enough? With the trusses available, I would have to go 10ft. or about 18ft. without using chains.

If your out of the way of obstructions, 10 feet should be fine.

Visualize the position and how to get the best coverage from that position. Can you angle the speakers to cover say 6-8 feet from the wall, out into the room? Pick a sweet spot, the point in the room where you get the best coverage. Will the sound still make it to the far points of the room? Try to consider the tile floor, point the speakers so you get the least amount of "impact" to the floor. Make sure you angle them. Don't just mount them flat to the trusses. You should still use chains or brackets to acomplish that. You really should do a diagram (sketch), of how you want the sound to project into the room. That can be used as a guide to position the speakers, then once you test them you can adjust as needed.

Once you mount them, power them and put some music on. Walk to every point in the room and listen to the sound. Take the time to notice the differences. That should guide you on adjustments to get the best coverage.

What kind of speakers are you mounting? What is the horn's projection angles both vertical and horizontal? This is critical in determining how to mount them.