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Smoking or Non-Smoking
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Author:  Babs [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Smoking or Non-Smoking
With the threat of the nonsmoking law constantly looming over us in our area, I was wondering how many of you are singing and working in nonsmoking karaoke venues.

Chicago is almost all nonsmoking now and the suburbs are following one by one. We are still safe, but most of the surrounding nonsmoking suburbs are pressuring the smoking ones to change. I have the feeling it is just a matter of time.
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
I prefer a smoking club, however I would adapt just like anyone else.

Well our smoking ban officially started Dec '05 (I thought it was Jan '06). Anyway, last study, statewide alcohol & food revenue in bars/pubs/tavern INCREASED 3.6 percent in 2006. Compared to a 2.1 percent increase between '02-'05 that allowed smoking. So obviously it isn't hitting as hard as people would like to believe!
The clubs that were hardest hit were non-tribal gambling casinos. Their revenues actually did fall 9.8%.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/loca ... 84456.html
Author:  karaoke for food..... [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
I guess strickly as a kj i would have to say smoking, however i didn't count my freebies for church groups or our seniors sing-a-longs, or special needs kids dances and sing-a-longs. I don't smoke myself, but i use to back in the late 80's early 90's.  I use to smoke 4 packs a day, back in my Jack and coke days,but since i had the cancer, i haven't went back. I prefer non smoking environments everywhere, but i'm not anti smoking, to each their own i guess. I agree with Lonman, it's just a matter of time when it will be all non smoking. Then we can walk around, over, through, and drag our equipment through, the piles of discarded cigarette butts outside the door...
Author:  Steven Kaplan [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Quote:
The clubs that were hardest hit were non-tribal gambling casinos. Their revenues actually did fall 9.8%.


Heck yes,  gambling nervousness & stress without ciggies ?  Unheard of !!!!  Alot of these folks are compulsive types of people.  Last group I'd expect to have an easy time giving up smoking given environment.
Author:  Flipper [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
My Monday night gig is Non-Smoking since July 2006, previously the bar had been a smoking bar for 43 years. Since the switch the business is up dramatically, like 35% up. There are plenty of smokers that come to the show and then step outside to smoke. Oregon has not followed suit with neighboring Washington however it is not far away.

I quit smoking 13 years ago and it's been a pleasure for me to KJ in a non-smoking environment. No longer do I come home reaking of cig smoke. I actually have more energy throughout the gig, and for sure the next morning as I no longer have sinus hangover from the smoke.

So many folks fear what it will do to business...I did too when we did the change, however after a breif adjustment period (60 days) business was back to normal, and then increased sharply after that. In fact it had a positive impact on the area, there are 4 other bars within just a few blocks and one other has had to go non-smoking to compete with our bar. I bet at least one other will follow suit soon as their business is down as well.  I never would have expected this type of effect.
Author:  Revenge Entertainment [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Ohio went completely non-smoking and business is sucking, to put it bluntly. The bar is empty when the smokers go outside as they all seem to have to go as one entity. The non-smokers aren't coming out to bars at all. And some of the bars around here aren't complying with the laws and they are busy. We are busy off and on, but EVERY smoker complains because there is no patio (and no place to build one) and they, by law, are not allowed to take their drinks out with them. Half the time, the barback takes their drinks while they are out smoking and a lot of them decide to head to one of the bars still allowing smoking inside after about the third time they have to go outside. I hate it.

On the positive side, I am not as raspy in the morning after a show as I used to be. I can run seven shows in a row and not lose my voice because of all the smoke in the air. (Negative side of that is we are in danger of losing shows and not HAVING seven shows a week because people are going where they can smoke AND drink.)

I dunno...I am really torn on the issue...but, as with other things, it's the law and, at this point, there is nothing we can do but hope it all works out.
Author:  Murray C [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
In all the places I have been where a smoking ban in public places has been enacted, bar owners have contested or bad-mouthed the non-smoking laws through the courts, something which seemed ludicrous to me.  I guess the bar owners see that the majority of their clientele are smokers and therefore assume they will stop coming to the bars if they can't smoke there, and their business will suffer.  They therefore demonstrate a care for their pockets over their customer's health.  As evidenced by Flipper's finding and from many other places where smoking bans are in effect, it seems that in fact the smokers do not stop going to bars, but the non-smokers who used to avoid them because of the smoke, now enjoy going... hence better business for the estabishments!

footnote:  R.E. posted her message while I was typing this.  Ok, maybe there are a few exceptions to the rule (as in just about everything in life).  But it seems that though the non-smokers in her area have not yet started to go out to the bars, the smokers still are.  One has to ask the question where would those customers go if all the bars complied with the law and so they would have no alternative?  It seems the problem is not the ban, but the bars who are defying it!
Author:  Lonman [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Revenge Entertainment @ Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:45 pm wrote:
Ohio went completely non-smoking and business is sucking, to put it bluntly. The bar is empty when the smokers go outside as they all seem to have to go as one entity. The non-smokers aren't coming out to bars at all. And some of the bars around here aren't complying with the laws and they are busy. We are busy off and on, but EVERY smoker complains because there is no patio (and no place to build one) and they, by law, are not allowed to take their drinks out with them. Half the time, the barback takes their drinks while they are out smoking and a lot of them decide to head to one of the bars still allowing smoking inside after about the third time they have to go outside. I hate it.

On the positive side, I am not as raspy in the morning after a show as I used to be. I can run seven shows in a row and not lose my voice because of all the smoke in the air. (Negative side of that is we are in danger of losing shows and not HAVING seven shows a week because people are going where they can smoke AND drink.)

I dunno...I am really torn on the issue...but, as with other things, it's the law and, at this point, there is nothing we can do but hope it all works out.


When did it go into effect?  Fairly recent as I recall?  Dec '06?  That's not even a year yet.  Are the violators getting fined, if not they should be reported on a continual basis until they are - we had several here as well that broke that & the bar was fined AND the patrons were fined individually - and repeat bar offender would lose their liquor license & be shut down anyway if they did not comply, well they started too & they are still in business even as a non-smoking bar.  If the bars can survive the year, everything should even out & business should start coming back.  The bars that do shut down & blame the ban - were probably not going to last much longer anyway, that was just a way to go out with a cause!
Ours is one of the toughest bans as the smokers not only have to go outside, but they ALSO have to stand 25 feet from ANY door or window that can open (even if it's closed)!  Just be glad you don't have that!
Author:  Babs [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
That brings up a good point Lon. It seems there are different variations to this law.

25ft. from any window or door that sounds drasctic. We have a beer garden. I wonder if they will allow smoking out there.

Revenge, it sounds like as long as your clientel is outside there okay with smoking.

If our clientel had to be 25 ft. away they'd be across the street or on another property. Yuck!
Author:  Steven Kaplan [ Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
What happened in CT.  Was a few years back initially the "Indoor Clean-air act" was tolerable.  within 1/2 a year that was amended, and the amended clean air act is what hit hard because it required costly mods such as punching out most of a buildings roof with costly ventilation systems in order to circumvent sending patrons into parking lots in the winter, and *THAT* hurt smaller places. Remember how this affects various places also has to do with climate in that particular area too.  In Florida or Texas or some of the southern areas fewer will mind going outdoors when compared with New England during a wet and very cold winter.

One way this stuff hurts.  Figure you're on a date sitting near a lounge fireplace and it's 5 degree's out and windy.  If you are in a larger lounge at 12 AM and need to go to coat check to get your jacket in order to have a ciggie, just doing that might prompt many to just head home and not go back into the lounge for what'd otherwise be a last-call crowd an hour later.  It disrupts mood, it's an effort, and a reason some will head elsewhere rather than head back into the bar once they need to get their coat and sober up in cold air.

(It's bad enough getting kicked off the couch, 86'd and sent out into the cold air for getting all passionate 'n stuff just to allow a couple to sit there instead, but this smoking stuff is tough for single folks and couples alike)

"Singles" bar is a pretty misleading and erroneous term anyway  :(
Author:  dynamic [ Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
They are passing Non Smoking laws here, but from what I have heard in other states that have done it, it takes a little while for everyone to get use to is, but business stays the same after a little dip.   Most places make accomadations for people to smoke outside.

I think this is my first post.  I tried to post once before but had a problem, hopefully this will go and then I can respond to some of the postings.
Author:  Charmin_Gibson [ Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
I wish, I wish, I wish.....

That Oregon would go non-smoking.

I don't care WHO complains "it's unfair to smokers". I say bullsh_t. It's not a smoking venue, it's a drinking venue. I should not have to breath other people's smoke every time I want to go out to a bar.

And I know ALOT of people who will not go out, or who will choose a place because it is "less smoky" than others.

.
Author:  timberlea [ Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Quote:
I don't care WHO complains "it's unfair to smokers". I say bullsh_t. It's not a smoking venue, it's a drinking venue.


As far as I can tell anyone can legally open a non-smoking venue if they wish, even in a place where 100% of the population smokes.  No one is stopping you from opening a non-smoking venue.  Free country?  In a pig's eye.

Strange that if there is such a great demand out there for non-smoking bars, that 1000s don't open all over the place.
Author:  Steven Kaplan [ Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Quote:
As far as I can tell anyone can legally open a non-smoking venue if they wish, even in a place where 100% of the population smokes.  No one is stopping you from opening a non-smoking venue.  Free country?  In a pig's eye.

Strange that if there is such a great demand out there for non-smoking bars, that 1000s don't open all over the place.



Tim,  

     While one would think technically "A person with enough money can do as they
please" there really isn't "enough demand" to repeal current law around where I live, and zoning around here is predominantly "anti-alcohol serving establishments" in this area regarding breaking new ground (that's unavailable in almost all business zoned locations around here) which is an area that's slowly coverting back to the "dry" days.. (or so it seems).

      What makes this a final straw for some places "so-to-speak" is as follows.

   Tough to get zoning to approve bars today, or any new alcohol serving establishment. Zoning Board voted down three local areas for reasons such as "within 1 mile of a school", "within 1 mile of a religious institution", "possible nuisance behaviour, and night noise" etc.. Really cracking down around here on all alcohol serving establishments. and, the current bars in operation are in most cases rented.  CT is REALLY making things tough zoning and permit-wise for prospective locations to get alcohol licensing.  Additionally while current building technically CAN convert, I think the problem is "can they affordably convert" in most cases.


   Assuming a building IS privately owned, the cost of converting a building that's closed roof into a ventilated approved style is cost prohibitive given this climate. I suppose an option MIGHT be to somehow convert the bars to "Private club" status however I don't know what that entails.  Around here you'd really need to do major ceiling and roof renovating and business in some of these places has been hurting for awhile however true,  "They can convert to smoking" but I don't know how many can *affordably* do-so given just how strict this indoor law really is, AND assuming your a bar in a building with several floors, you really can't.  If you read the second paragraph below, the law really pushes for complete "open roof" status, or amazing exhaust fan systems to allow just 25% of designated seating smoking allowed, and that's outside if there's ANY roof at all over head.  Not sure how doable in this climate conversion is at all. That WOULD allow smoking conditions that existed prior to the amended law in 2004 here in CT. Easiest just to send people outside, but it still acts as a final straw for already hurting businesses from other laws putting a tight squeeze on bars... DUI for instance, local insurance prejudices, etc..

So arguably while one would think "you can" do as you please in a free country, the problem still remains in certain locations (assuming IE the bar is on the first floor of a several story building) given zoning and unavailability of business zoned property that this "Farming area" doesn't wish to see developed you might not be able to do as you please in this current location, or too close.

Restaurants and Bars

All restaurants and bars must be smoke free regardless of the number of employees. Establishments with a cafe or tavern permit or the bar area of a bowling alley and in any area of a dog race track or a facility equipped with screens for the simulcasting of off-track betting race programs or jai alai games must be smoke-free by April 1, 2004

Smoking is prohibited in outside seating of a restaurant that has a ceiling or other type of covering. Outside seating that does not have a ceiling or other type of covering can have up to 25% of the seating designated as smoking. Signs must be posted designating smoking area.
Author:  Murray C [ Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Hear, hear Charmin!   For a long time non-smokers have put up with the unpleasant smell and ill-effects of "smokers' air", and many have made the choice to no longer frequent the bars because of it.  Now they have an opportunity to once again enjoy an evening out without returning home with irritated lungs and smelling like an old ash-tray.  No sympathy here for the smokers complaining about being out in the cold!  The only thing I have to say about that is.....

Suck it up ! !

It's what us non-smokers have had to do for so long!
Author:  johnny reverb [ Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
First let me say I've never been a smoker, so I couldn't even comprehend the difficulty of quitting.
I do agree that it should be left up to the owner, as to smoking or non-smoking. Four out of five adults in this country are non-smokers, yet in the past, when someone opened up a smokeless establishment, or had a no smoking night, they lost there a$$, because hardly anyone showed up. With 80% of the adult population non-smokers, you'd think there would be a market for a non-smoking place. Non-smokers have nobody to blame but themselves, if they can't find a smoke free venue. I would stipulate, that no one under 18 belongs in a smoking enviroment, but that's just my opinion.......but until then, Babs can blow all the smoke in my face that she wants to........as long as I get to see where it comes from..... LMAO ....lately I hear, the smokes been comming from a sunburned a$$...... :shock:  :O  LMAO
Author:  Isis [ Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
I have some friends in the DFW area who own a Karaoke Store.. and Have for the past 14 years, for all of those years they do a show on Weds nights.. It is smoke free and alchohol free. They get around 20 people each week.  I think there is a need for a non-smoking venue and I would go, if it was convenient for me (day and time).    I hear people all the time complaining about the smoke.. It think if a venue was marketed correctly (to the right crowds) that it would work very well....  

Because let's face it, those who do smoke are being forced by the government to quit and those that have never smoked would like to be in a smoke free environment. Me as a singer, I think, I would prefer to sing in a non smoke environment (even though I smoke). Why?? Cause the smoke hurts my eyes.....
Author:  TotalMagic [ Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
The fact is, non smokers seem to love smokers, just not the smoke. Smokers seem to have great personalities, very outgoing, witty, and just plain fun. No matter where we go, there are non-smokers following us everywhere. A couple of smokers step outside to smoke and before long a herd of non-smokers are there hanging around trying to join in the fun fanning smoke. You step into your small ventilated designated smoke area at work and before long the room is so full of non-smokers fanning smoke you can't even reach the ash tray. Yeah, it's a shame we are so much fun to be around or we might not have to put up with this.  LOL
Author:  timberlea [ Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
That happens here quite often.  The smoker goes out for a puff and the non-smokers follow.  Not onlt do we have more charisma but we have a vast amount of power.   Non-smokers will follow us wherever we go.  Given a choice people will open smoking venues, vice non-smoking venues.  Since this is the world wide web, can anyone give any examples of successful, voluntary non-smoking venues in places where smoking venues are legal?  We had two in Halifax and within six months, they converted to smoking until the smoking ban came into effect.  Now the biggest problem?  Cigarette butts all over the place because venues are not allow to put out butt recepticles.

So please a list of successful non-smoking venues where smoking is legal.  Being the nice guy I am I'll say that two years will be deemed a success.
Author:  Flipper [ Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Smoking or Non-Smoking
Well Charmin it's not very far off now....Oregon Senate Bill 571 now has a green light and will go to a vote soon. If successfully passed the proposed smoking ban will take effect Jan 2009. I just wish we did not have to wait so long to get it.

I feel that this will be a watered down version of the one in Washington.
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