Karaoke Forums

Ooh Red

Maybe it's best that I've never made it to NZ


PS: Your play on words did not at all escape me. I accept both your compliments in the spirit in which it/they were provided!

Dammit only my oldest online friends call me red...do we know each other from somewhere else?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Sure it would be nice to be able to make enough money at karaoke to pay for replacement cables or a few new songs but, it is not my priority. I was not complaining. I merely stated that I had what I considered a big show and the patrons did not tip much. I wondered if that was normal. If you took it as a significant complaint you misinterpreted what I was saying (and much of the comments are carying over from previous threads).

The fact is many people go into entertainment to be happy not for the money. Sure the money is nice but most people in the business have day jobs to get by. Where I live there is huge competition to get gigs even for free at decent clubs on busy days. The local market is saturated with people who know music. Often the quality is quite good. That is what real competition does, it brings out quality. Why work to make your show better if you already dominate the local market? Competitive markets bring out excellence and that is a good thing. If your paid show can't out compete the guy willing to do it for free it is YOUR problem as a "professional", not the person doing a free show, (provided he paid for his rig legally). The fact is MANY musical acts and DJs have gone on to greatness from my town (Athens, GA), and most of them spent months or years doing free gigs first. Even the Beatles spent years at practically no pay and were not "professionals". They were however in a very competitive market for music and that helped bring out their greatness.

Sure I may not be a "Professional" as in that I do not do the Karaoke only for money. That said my show is a lot better than many that do. Many of you sound like spoiled "pro" sports players who have forgotten the fact that they are getting paid to do something that a lot of people would gladly pay to do if they only had the talent and practice to do it well.

For those of you who can make a living doing karaoke that is great. But if you can be replaced by any old hack with a sound system, then you are living on borrowed time. The problem is not the unskilled hack working for free.

I've not read all 3 pages, but am a little confused.

The venue is not a charity, they are a profit making company. You KJ there for free?

You have just valued yourself, your kit, your selection and your show at $0.00.

Why?

Moreover, why do you feel that anyone will tip you if your show is valued at such a figure?

Obviously this is not the value - but it is the perception you are creating.

I admire where your heart is. Just think you need to weigh up whether you are doing this as a hobby for fun, or as a business. I would suggest the former right now.

Fred,

ever since I left my old venue in Portland, they have tried various hacks. Yes I was replaced, but not successfully.

My talent, my showmanship, and yes, my specific collection was a mainstay at my old venue.

When asked at older venues, I told them that if they felt I could be replaced, then to go ahead and do it. But not to come complaining to me when it blew up in their faces.

That's the problem the way I see it. Many people THINK it's fun to just run karaoke. What they don't understand is we MAKE it fun by being darned good at our jobs. A well-oiled machine is fun to drive because it's kept in good condition.

Eventually a hack that buys a similar model will kill it by not knowing what they're doing.

well said Matt.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I am relatively new to KJing (and this forum), so I am still learning. Fortunately, I have the luxury of doing Karaoke purely as a fun hobby side business with my wife. I realize many of you are full-time professionals in the Karaoke business.

Due to the fact we don't rely on the income from our gigs to support us, we are able to be "creative" with the local bars. In this economy, many bars are having a hard time paying fees for gigs. They are having a hard time making ends meet just like everyone else.

We are able to go in and offer entertainment for a percentage of the bar revenue. This makes us all stakeholders. In most cases, we get a minimum of 15%, usually more like 25% (also good discounts on food/drinks). Of course, this is for bars with their own PA systems. We haven't made that investment yet. We just have a great computerized system with a good selection of songs. If we don't bring the people in, we don't make money. The bar owners love the arrangement. It is a great way to break into the field. We have only been doing it about 5 weeks and we are already averaging a minimum of $100 per night + tips. We don't focus on tips, but we have a tip jar and get approximately $20 per night.

We have acquired our website domains for future use, but in the meantime, we have had GREAT success using www.meetup.com to bring new Karaoke lovers in.

Remember, I am not an expert, just someone learning as I go, and with my wife in the crown mixing while I am playing the tunes, we make a great team. I am sure I can learn quite a bit from all of you on this forum.

NOT if the function is not making enough money to pay a professional rate.(Certainly not the car shows here in hawaii)

And it's very easy to write-off my "donated time" based on my regular going rate. So i can work for them for $50 or free, or donate my time for free then deduct my going-rate from my taxes.

BUT i wouldn't expect you to know ANY of this, as you don't do this professionally...

I understand why you do it for free, and providing you are legal (which you are) I have no problem with it. You can only work a maximum of 7 nights a week, less probably because you have a another job, so your free gigs won't hurt my business.

Those who undercut me, who have a laptop full of copied songs will cause more damage, because their overheads are less than mine, and they can obtain more gigs by charging less money. Their running costs are much lower than mine and in most cases they make more money, and because of that more and more are appearing on our local circuit.

You are a rare breed, who essentially pays (and pays rather a lot in discs, insurance and general maintence etc) to do a job they love, there's not a lot like you. Respect to you.

In the Uk as previously discussed, we don't have the tip culture that is found elsewhere, but I feel that the customers who enjoy your show could do more to support the entertainment they love, like Babs said I'd consider letting them know the situation and ask for a contribution.

Another option, although I'm sure you've looked into it... Is their a lcoal hall/room/venue where you and a select crowd could bring their own alcohol and food and have a "private regular party", that way you could have a cover charge which will help support your hobby.

Don't tell the IRS you are doing that. It will be denied.

You can write off any material cost. If they pay you cash, they can write off the cost. But you can't arbitrarily say "I am worth $100.00 per hour and I am donating 4 hours".

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

12 years at this mckyj, i know what i'm doing. And having worked for 2 large entertainment compaines before starting my own, so i believe you are mis-informed my friend...or go to H&R Blockheads....

I have 2 lawyers, a great tax consultant/ accountant, and know what is possible and LEGAL. And NO, i wouldn't put it in THAT "wording" to the IRS like that, duh, (it's 6am now and haven't slept yet) but pro-bono expenses for non-charity causes IS tax deductible but limited to a few per year. Check with YOUR TAX MAN and let me know if he's up on the laws and loopholes of LLCs.

I am sure you can figure out ways around the limitation but they are going to be on very shaky ground, because the rationale is that in-specie donations are made with things purchased with after-tax dollars, and that donations of time and effort cannot be after-tax.

Certainly the normal person running a business as a sole proprietorship would have a very hard time getting that done, so it would be risky for them to try and do this.

http://www.howlandtax.com/articles/donate.htm

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

OK going with your original intent Dr Fred that would be normal for me. And it is that busy many nights. But I neither solicit tips nor put out a tip jar. I still get a few tips anyway. I just don't expect them.

But since you do expect them you have to start promoting them. If I found myself in the same position as you, throughout the night I would announce that I am not getting paid by the establishment and any tips for my service would be greatly appreciated.

Then I would sure hit the owner up for something from his end next time.

I don't have a tip jar, and don't solicit tips. I'll get a few bucks handed to me every now and then, but I expect the bar staff to get the tips, not me.

I've been silent on this up till now, but I cannot hold my proverbial tongue any longer. The whole thought of not being valued enough to get paid really makes my blood boil.

I take excception to your comment.
I am NOT spoiled, nor is anyone else who is like-minded and I really resent your implication that we are.
This is a BUSINESS. We have a right to be paid for running it.
It's no different than any other BUSINESS.
Just because there are some people who wish they could do it, does not make it any less valuable.
I wish I could be a doctor, but I can't at this point in time. I enjoy working in the medical profession with patients. Does that make the profession any less valuable?
I'm sorry but just because you enjoy doing something, doesn't mean it isn't work.

We are NOT "spoiled" as you say, but we ARE deserving of the money we get paid.
Any other BUSINESS charges their customers for the job they do.
Just because it's a fun BUSINESS doesn't mean it should be done for free.
YOU may choose not to charge, but don't knock the rest of us who do.
I'm of a like mind with the others.
If you don't charge for it, you devalue it to the point where you say you now are.
You don't get paid.
This is what happens when undercutters get the upper hand.
Sorry, but any business that cries poverty in regards to their entertainment budget simply should not be in business.
They are NOT as poverty-stricken as you think.
Bar owners are notorious for being CHEAP. Their main goal is to drive up their profit margin. If that means they can get their entertainment for free, all the better.
Oh, and I enjoy going to the bar and drinking a few. I even enjoy bartending once in a while. Does that mean the bar should do it for free?

Your bar doesn't necessarily care if you're talented or not.
That bar will NEVER pay you because some "hack" who works for free (like yourself!) can always replace you.
And as long as you and all the other entertainment people accept that bars don't pay for entertainment, they never will.
Why should they?
I STRONGLY disagree that not paying entertainment makes the quality go up. WRONG!
All it does make entertainers poor and line the pockets of the venue owners on YOUR WORK (Yes, I said WORK!) and equipment and discourage talent from taking it up.
Eventually, the entertainers in your area will dry up.
They don't get paid, can't afford that new snare they need or in your case, new CDG's, and cannot do gigs because they have to WORK and get PAID in order to keep food on the table.
Quality goes DOWN, not up!
Just wait a few years, you'll see.
And it will take a few YEARS because there are always a few people who are stupid enough to WORK for free and devalue their BUSINESS.

I would say you have a right to ask a fee. If your fee is not attractive enough to prospective clients, you won't get the business. You have as much right to be paid for karaoke as I have the right to be engaged at the Hollywood Bowl for a concert. If your fee was $500.00 per night, I am guessing you would have the same results I do getting my gig at the Hollywood bowl.

I believe Fred has the right to do whatever he wants to do, too. And that includes doing free karaoke. You can think he is stupid, but he is doing what he wants to do. He is one person, and he by himself will not make or break the business, but even if he did make or break it himself, it would still be his right.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Well it sure sounded like a complaint from the way I read it like you couldn't believe that is all you made for your 6 1/2 hours of working.
There is no normal. I actually get more on slower nights than I do on busy nights, probably due to the fact that people can sing more.


But this is my job, if I don't get paid, I don't eat or have a place to live or anything else & to have people willing to do it for free or next to nothing does affect my job possibilities since the bars start getting wind they can get free entertainment, why should they pay someone? This is the part you don't seem to understand. This is not a hobby for my, this IS my job.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I rarely get good tips. Usually its a drunk birthday crowd if I do. The regulars dont tip nor do I expect them too. They are usually good for a drink though.

(Bolding mine)
This EXACTLY the point I was trying to drive home in my previous post.
Yes, he has the RIGHT to do as he pleases.
But is it a good thing to do?
Does it affect me?
You bet it does!
Just as Lonman put it.
It comes down to undercutting, which is what he is doing, whether he likes it or not.
Not much different than a pirate, in my opinion except that his stuff is legal.
Working for free is bad for ALL entertainers.
Proof in point is the OP's town.
Entertainers don't get paid.
I'll put money on it that it all started with someone who just really wanted to play and offered to undercut the other bands/djs/kjs and do it for less.
Then another guy really wanted to play and undercut him.
And so on down the line to the point that now no one gets paid for doing a JOB!
Unfortunately, in his town, it seems that the precedent has been set and he thinks he must work within it.
Why not have a meeting with all the entertainers in town and try to all get on the same track and start getting the venues to pay SOMETHING for entertainment?
A united front, so to speak.
It doesn't have to be alot to begin with, but it could be a START to get back on track to what it should be.
Personally, I would drive to the next town to get PAID rather than WORK for free.
I'd rather my equipment gather dust.
If that wasn't possible, I would do like someone else suggested and have it at home or at a small hall and ask my regs to pony up some for maintenance and updates.
But in NO circumstances would I WORK a for-profit venue for free!

Have you ever heard of such a thing? No, of course not. And there is a good reason for it. It simply isn't possible.

Now if we can get back to reality, trying to shame Fred for the conditions in his town and his adaptation to it has little relationship to what is happening in other towns. Something is worth what people are willing to pay for it, and in karaoke in the US and Canada that has pretty much been established in our business to be $150-$300 a night, varying from place to place. You can get it for less sometimes, but the quality is going to be pretty bad, in general.

I really do believe Fred. I have the opposite problem -- we have too few patrons and people can't afford to pay because our population won't support regular crowds. I want karaoke close to us, but we can't find people to do it for the price that we can afford to pay. So we put up with crappy karaoke you can get for cheap. I end up driving a ways to put on shows, and to go to shows. (I usually have to go 30-40 miles/minutes).

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.