Karaoke Forums

Every radio station all over the world pays a check on a regular basis for the privilege of playing the music. Over here in NZ a fish and chip shop had a small radio they played in their store and the APRA people came in and told them if they continued to do that then they would have to pay to do so as it was deemed entertainment for the customers. The radio station it was tuned to heard about the plight and got behind their chippy and paid it for them...it was quite a media fest as the story made TV news as well

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Yep, not much better here in the US either. Remember when you called in to some companies and were put on hold? Apparently, some of these companies were playing local radio stations as a hold music. The wonder lawyers tried to sue the companies for license fee because they were playing copyrighted material without license through the phone. I don't remember what the outcome was but most of the companies stopped doing that and started to use licensed music CDs as hold music, mostly from unknown artists who wouldn't mind having their music played or classical music. Go figure.

_________________

Seize the day and SING!!!

I remember the poster, but not that story. But in my opinion, those that do the hard drive or the multirigs SHOULD have the full weight of the law come down on them. They're profiting off something they don't own!

BUT again, this was the type of guy that is killing the manus.  1 master hard drive repeatedly copied for selling on the auction sites for his own personal monetary gain.  Or the company that takes 1 set of originals (IF they even have that) & copies them to hard drive, copies it several times for use in different shows at the same time, or the company that just file shares all of their music & uses these instead of buying the originals.  
These are the kinds of examples that SHOULD be going down, not the company that purchases ALL of their discs to transfer to the computer for play & has a disc to validate everything that is in a computer at each show.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Jim,

I am as frustrated by copyright issues as much as you are.  I've been told, furthermore, that some states have statutes that add different slants to copyright issues.  But, remember, any legal discussions should not be of concern to someone who never plans to use the material in a commercial setting.

So far no one has been able to site a court ruling involving a KJ and copyright infringement questions.  HOWEVER, urban legend has it that many KJ's have received "cease and desisit" letters and abided by the demands therein (so it never got to court).

We have been told that their are stiff penalties for "format shifting" for one measly track.  One contributor to this forum (who expended much energy chastising us about copyright law) liked to make it seem that the fines are automatically levied and collected (by some nebulous creature) if one is caught breaking the law.  Several of us are befuddled by this because we believe that there is no compensation due in any matter in which their is: no economic loss, no withholding of compensation that should have been paid, and no abuse of the material.

AS TO ECONOMIC LOSS:  if a KJ puts coyrighted material on a hard drive from other media he/she has purchased, and their is no hard drive version of that material available for sale to the public, no economic loss resulted from the creation of those hard drive files by the KJ.

AS TO UNPAID COMPENSATION:  If the KJ does not sell a hard drive that has copyrighted material on it, no copyright holder has been deprived of compensation for use of his/her work!

NO ABUSE:  If the material has not been changed in the process of creating the hard drive, the copyright holder cannot claim any loss of reputation and or stature due to the shift in format.

While we keep going around and around on this, it will never be resolved amongst us.  I am curious what similar issues are being dealt with by DJ's who have transferred everything to hard drives, and how have they responded to and (if they have) interpreted the format shifting statute?

PS;  Jim, if you go about two thirds down the first page of subjects in this forum you will find a thread "legal concerns for hard drive users" that is 5 pages long on this very topic

In the UK a recent policy has been introduced with PPL.
A DJ is allowed to shift to HD use after paying
about £200 for a licence to do so.
Most DJ's are not aware of this.
PPL said they wont activly start searching for non licenced DJ's.
There is no such licence for a KJ as they dont come under
the jurisdiction of PPL.

PhnyEKJ


And what is so compelling about this topic that it is, virtually, the only subject you post about?  With so much, supposed experience, you could add a great deal to this forum in many areas.  Instead, you have added nothing.  We already know that there are certain copyright matters that KJ's are facing who put their shows on hard drives.  We also know that no karoke company has pressed the issue up until now.

I AM NOT A KJ; I am a hobbyist.  So, at this point the law doesn't effect me.  But I am trying to add, though it may be very little, to an open discussion of the current circumstances.  You, IMHO, are trying to stifle discussion in an attempt to persuade us that the sky is going to fall if we don't "tow the line".  We may not be lawyers, but we all know that there is a big difference between what a law states, how the law maybe interpreted, and how it might actually be implemented!


NO ONE HERE IS OFFERING ANYONE LEGAL OPINIONS.  We are, however, trying to explain what the issues are for those who are confused. AND IT BECAUSE WE DO CARE THAT THIS SUBJECT IS GETTING SO MUCH ATTENTION!


Why haven't you added something to this discussion other than citing statutes (and incidents) which I, personally, don't care about.  I have no desire to read the statues word for word.  And since your are concerned that we don't understand the law, take solace in the fact that I recognize, as the ignorant know-nothing that I am, that I am too dumb to understand what the statues mean and too smart to rely upon myself for a legal opinion.  So what would I get out of reading the statutes?

Over the years, in my business, I have obtained legal opinions on matters that others have ignored, when they shouldn't have.  Those opinions, though no longer needed, I still have.

Why not provide this forum with copies of all of the opinions you acknowledge that you have collected?  There must be a great deal there that we can benefit from at this forum.

The most recent legal opinion I have pertaines to determining if someone is an employee or a contract worker.  If anyone would like what I have in that regard, you are most welcome to it.






















[/quote]

If you are bored, and want some interesting reading, then GOOGLE "riaa LOSES".

you will find some very interesting reading. One is a case where Riaa was trying to collect a mere $750.00 per track from a defendant. The judge Makes them prove how they have lost that much money if they sell the same exact tracks on itunes for .70.

I Hope one day we will be reading about Sound Choice getting their due in court for the same bullying tactics. Judges are not just giving the Record industries carte blanche. They have been loosing pretty consistantly.

_________________
______________________________________
I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

the receipts are for the disc format. Once he format shifted the material it became illegal by the letter of the law.  Sound Choice is now going after computer karaoke users.   The buyer would get sued for having illegal songs on the hard drive.
Having the disc might allow the user to claim fair use and get away with it as long as he wasn't running a commercial show.
Now the only way a hard drive system would be legit with receipts is if they bought all of their music from Tricerasoft, Top Hits Monthly, Zoom and Cavs and have the receipts to prove it.

_________________
The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Any one like to buy some authentic looking reciets.
I will do anything you want.

There are more on this forum that could do that as well.

I dont know how much sway a receipt would have.
With the computer, they dont mean that much any more.

Where would you like your receipt for the Brooklyn bridge posted...

Anything current?  These are all older cases.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

thank you EELvis, that is the kind of info I was looking for.  Right now, I wouldn't risk buying a hard drive.  But I think many people are 100% scared of something that may not be such a monster.  I'd like to find out what the deal truly is, it may take years.  Yes there are risks, but I have a feeling there is somewhat of making a mountain out of a molehill.  not based on the law but based on the enforcement and SPIRIT of the law.

something else.  if it is against the law to put those files on your hard drives when you own the disc, what kind of penalty/fine is there again and how does that work precisely?  I'm thinking a Jury would have a hard time giving a big company a bunch of $$$$$ from some KJ for doing that in a civil suit.  But if it is a criminal penalty it may have an easier time being convicted/penalized possibly?

Lonman, your right it is unfortunate that some of you that are running  1:1 systems will get caught up in this. I've talked to SC,CB, and to stellar and your not the people their after. The problem is that it's still falls under the same copyright violations. As you have said a copy is a copy. They all admit that in the next few years computers and downloads will be the way to go. when the publishers allow it to happen. If they could get the licensing from the publishers they would do it now. But without effective controls like drm encoding the publishers are standing firm,when it comes to karaoke music. If the karaoke Co's don't get this cleaned up.  you will see less and less licensed karaoke music. Right know it becomes very easy to tell who's using a hard drive and who's not . They are sending out cease and desist letters in the phx area to the bars and some of what you call multi-riggers with no discs at all.  And the bars are receiving most of  them , easier to send a letter to someone who ha s abusiness than it is to some guy working out of a cellphone. I have seen the letter. Again It is to some degree unfortunate that the ones that have the back-up originals will be affected too. The good part of that is if you own the originals you can stay in business with the purchase  of a couple of cdg players.

I asked if anyone knew how dj's are reacting to these similar legal questions?
With no response to that posting, I took it upon myself to scout around.  Ended up at   djchat.com, where I bumped into several familiar posters.  What I found, in short, is another forum in which the members are grappling with the same legal questions regarding copyrights.  

If any group engaged a lawyer versed in these matters, the most IMHO we expect would be legal opinions.   If the lawyer suggested DJ's and KJ's cease and desist from making backup copies, I guess it would be best to follow that advise.  If the lawyer suggested DJ's and KJ's avoid format shifting, I guess it would be best to follow that advise, as well.

If the lawyer, on the other hand, advised that there is a strong legal defense for backing-up catalogs and that the statutes regarding format shifting would not prevail under scrutiny at a trial,  DJ's and KJ's would probably continue to "copy" and "format shift" their catalogs.  However, should a lawyer give such advise, the reality is that until the matter goes to trial, the answers to these legal questions would remain illusive.

Eric, I think we're looking at a glass house, here.

Easy to see where this is going, but who the heck wants to throw a rock at it? That's in essence what happened with me. Once it became clear what SC and Stellar (the majority of my material) were committed to doing, I realized I could either cave in and run discs until the final rulings all came in, continue doing what I've been doing and that's running shows with the computer, or quit, because I was so offended at treating ALL computer jocks with the same swipe of the sythe!

BC at Sound Choice admitted on their forum less than a few months ago that he didn't see the PERSONAL problem with 1:1 users, and admits that this is where the technology is leading too... however, he also sides with the way the law is currently written!

I was looking for specific cases to post, but Realized I couldnt post from another site as it would be Copyright infringement.

I looked at all the cases, and one in particular that caught my eye, a Judge asked Riaa how they came up with the $750.00 a track loss figure when they sell the track for .70 on the internet.  This was a win for the defendant........

There are a lot of recent cases in the search, but it is in the latter pages (up around 10 or so) I guess there arent a bunch of internet references to the search engine to that.

But RIAA had to pay the defendants lawyers fees in many cases where they lost. Most cases where they were challenged, they lost. Most people just give up and pay, and that is sad. The one that will be the most important, will be when courts Rule on the countersuit including collusion, and racketerring charges.

_________________
______________________________________
I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

recent case....... concerning the $750 per song fee......... January 2007

http://info.riaalawsuits.us/documents.htm#UMG_v_Lindor

http://www.ilrweb.com/viewILRPDF.asp?fi ... _amendmemo

_________________
______________________________________
I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

The response from the invisable man was...

Thank you Elvis,

I'm not sure if you were suggesting that the case was settled, but the motion(s) are exciting.  The lawyer cites other cases and precedents to negate the specific statutes that the plaintiff would like applied.

This motion addresses what many of us have been wondering about!

Elvis is in the house - Great WorK!

Lonman, what gives you the impression there will be more cases in court regarding illegal karaoke operations?  Is KAPA making a comeback?  I know of a couple KJs in my area that play dirty music, as a second question to all ... If you know of a KJ in your area that is using illegal music, do you say something to someone, or leave them to their own devices?