Karaoke Forums

MortenN,
I know where you are coming from, I work with engineers all day. Look into the mackie dfx12 mixer and the features. sounds like your kind of widget. It is priced reasonabley and has built in effects processor. altho it doesn't have a compressor/limiter it does have side channel in/out, so you could use one with it. But I doubt you would use the compressor more than a couple of days then you would put it on a shelf somewhere. I talk from experience. You should see all the stuff I have on the shelf.

Also read you booklet that came with the sm58, It has 10 db gain up close on bass frequencies and the same on high's when you back off. If you noticed pro/semi pro singers the back off the mic when they go for the high's Normally you have to "let loose to hit the high's and don't want to overdrive the mic. Besides, you may want to sing in a Karaoke show one night, and ig the kj doesnt have the same equipment you have you are going to sound bad, because you are used to being processed.

Also, There is a processor out that I am looking into that Compares your "sung" note to the music playing, and injects a beat frequency to your voice to insure all tones are "on key". You could be off key, and you will still sound like a pro. Most Studio's use them with the pro's to keep them in line.

Oh well, just a thought.......

Update,

I picked up the speakers yesterday in NYC. The size is good, couldn't be much bigger for stand mount. Since they don't have binding posts and I haven't received my speakon connectors yet, I bought a cheap set of 1/4" plugs from Radioshack (uhh not that name again ) and cut away most of my speaker cable and soldered them on. Right now the speakers are just sitting on the floor, I will get the stands later.

First I tested the frequency response to make sure all drivers were good, and they were. Then I put some music on, started with Tracy Chapman (Mountain of things) for the great synth bass. The sound is very clear and they can play really (REALLY!) loud. The bass sounds pretty well defined also. They have a lot more bass volume than my stereo speakers. Enough that I think they will be good when mounted on stands. I then started singing with them, driving them with my 150W RMS in 8ohm monoblocks. I didn't need to turn the stereo pre-amp up to more than 9 o'clock (1/4 of the way), so I think the reproduction was not limited (significantly) by the amplifiers.

I sang:

Beatles:
Penny Lane
Lady Madonna
Strawberry Fields
All you need is love

John Denver:
Take me home country roads
Annie's song

U2:
Where the streets have no name
With or without you
One

Enrique Iglesias:
Hero

and many other. I really liked the clarity of my voice and the ability of the speaker to clearly repproduce voice simultaneous with all the music. I also noticed that when playing recorded music. All this was done using the mic inputs on the RSQ MV333, and singing through my Shure SM58.

I am really looking forward to getting a mixer, getting them on stands, and mounting the speakon connectors (the 1/4" quick fix is pretty poor, I had to cut away most of the cable to make it fit when I soldered them on).

Kojak, I haven't found any 2. basses yet can you recommend some artists and songs and I will try them out.

Morten

Morten,
I use a Mackie mixer and I haven't haed any problems with noise. I would like to make an anology between setting the mains on your mixer and opening up the valve from the water mains to your house. If you open up the water mains just a little, you would have to open up the spigot on your sink a lot to get any kind of pressure, (assuming that you've opened up the mains enough to give you the pressure that you need). You will also find that the spigot's adjustment will be rather dead, (you'll need to make a large adjustment to get any kind of responce). Being in the shower when somebody flushes the toilet won't be fun either.
Going to the other extreame is just as bad. If you open the mains up too much you may blow the cheap faucet that you bought from the store next to Radio Shack, and a small gain adjustment will cause a large responce making your controls touchy.
You said that Carvin recommended running the channels hot and the mains cold. That could be true for Carvin's product line, or it could be the opinion of just one of many Carvin engs. It could be the widely held opinion of Carvin engs. for Carvin products, or for any mixer. Personally, I set my channel's gain control and my mains output to the universal, (middle of the road), setting and make adjustments from there. Normally small adjustments for the vocals or for the music would be made at the channel strip, and adjustments for the room filling up and the crowd getting noisey would be made at the mains output.

Kojak,

According to the manual Carvin recommends to run the mains colder than the chennel and sub group faders (excerpts from C844 manual: "Always keep channel and sub group faders higher than the master L-R faders. Using the L-R fader or sub group fader to boost the level of a week channel signal can result in excess noise."). With your description it doesn't sound like there is any contradiction, since boosting a weak channel suggest a large difference, not the middle of the road settings you describe.

Even if you do it your way or theirs, aren't you still vulnerable to someone dropping the mic? In either case the mixer will clip, right?

Thanks, Morten

Morten,

Since the max power within the mixer is controled by the mixer's design, one clip caused by someone dropping the mic shouldn't be of much concern. Your real concern should be amp clipping.
The way to avoid this is as follows:
Turn the amp's output down to zero, then turn it on.
Put on the loudest music or sound sourse that you can find, (this can be a loud, obnoxious CD with a lot of bass or some fool yelling into a mic). Turn all eq adjs up all the way. Turn the gain up all the way on the channel strip, then turn up the mains up all the way. This gives you a "screaming" mixer. It's yelling at your amp with all that its got.
Next turn up each side of you amp until the red clip indicator light on your amp comes on and then back off until it goes off then back it off a little more for added protection. You're now set.
This is your system running at its max output with no danger of being damaged by anything. Your amp is pumpin out all the power it can without damageing the speakers by clipping, (take note that you can pump 5000watts into 50watt speakers and blow the speakers without clipping the amp, but common since will stop you by putting SO much distortion in your face that you should know better).
Once you've properly set the amps power output, nothing that screaming drunk does should do more than annoy you.
A mic dropping drunk is a differant story. Dropping a mic is not good for it, but that won't cause your system any harm.

As far 2nd basses are concerned the differance between a baratone and a 2nd bass is more about where the singers resonance lies as opposed to where his actual range is. A weak voiced tenor can rattle at the bottom of his range and think that he has a low vioce when he doesn't. There is a musical term for this but I can't remember what it is. It describes the range that an instrument or voice can make strongly with good tone.
16 Tons is a great song fot a 2nd bass.

Kojak,

so what version do you prefer? Platters, Johnny Cash? I will buy it from Buymusic.com and try it out.

Morten

Morten,
I have the DK Millenium collection. It lists 16 Tons by The Platters and by Tennessee Ernie Ford as the same track number. I've never heard Johnny Cash's version. I don't think that you should buy anything just to give me an opinion on how your 1584 handle low voices. Just find a low voiced singer and have him sing through them. Any song will work. Just drop the key as low as you can go without going out of your friends range. Keep the bass turned down on the singers mic channel. Since you're not using a mixer yet this means that you'll be keeping the bass turned down on your entire stereo. Low voiced singers do not like bass. It makes them sound "muddy" or "boomy". Many KJs have this concept compleatly backwards and fall right on thier faces when it comes to mixing for a low voiced singer. They seem to think that adding bass will make a 2nd bass singer sound even "bassier" or something stupid like that.
The fact that your 1584s have 15" woofers as opposed to 12" woofers is compleately differant than adding low eq to a mic channel. 12" woofers have more punch than 15" woofers, but 15' woofers have more warmth and depth, and should sound a little cleaner.

Here's a point in passing:
Anytime you use the key changer to lower a song, you should turn the bass down a little and the treble up a little, (and vice versa when you raise a song's pitch). The amount of adjustment is dependant upon both how the track is recorded and how far you take the track from its original key. The reason is obvious, but unless somebody brings it to your attention it could elude you forever. In fact, I can't think of any KJ that I know of that makes this rather important adjustment. They just live with, (and make you live with), the fact that the backround singers sound like the Chipmonks or like Darth Vader. This is just damage control and you're going to have funky sounding backround vocals regardless of what you do, but still, minimise the damage as much as you can.

Kojak,

buying the song from buymusic.com (regular song not karaoke) is only $0.99. That is not a big deal. So I will get the platters version and see how it sounds. When I finally get my act together and find a Foundations 1 at a reasonable price it would have Sixteen tons.

I have listened to Madonna "Hey Mr. DJ". Even though the woofers are big the bass is really "dry" and detailed, not muddy, with a good punch. I got my speakon connectors, they are just so much cooler than the 1/4" ones. I still have the speakers on the floor, I am looking forward to getting them up on stands. I haven't decided whether to get stands from Carvin versus cheap stands from Ebay. Right now I am leaning towards Carvin.

I am also still debating between getting an eight or sixteen channel mixer, hoping that one of them will show up on E-bay.


BTW. Thanks for the other advice.

Morten

Kojak,

got the Platters version of Sixteen Tons and listened to it on my 1584's as well as on my hifi speakers.

The tweeter on the hifi speakers seems a little more refined than the horns on the PA speakers, however that is to be expected.

The voice of the singer sounded great on both speakers, bass sounded well resolved and I didn't notice any timber changes. Tried a little bit, but I am incapable of singing that deep, probably also expected...

Like last comparison the 1584's have much more bass (not that that is bad) than the stereo speakers, probably because they are standing on the floor.

Morten

Morten,
There's always some kind of trade off between one speaker and the next. I think that horns are harsher, (or as you put it, not as refined), than tweeters. They do however, handle high output levels better than tweeters. This is generally a pretty fair trade off for pros, since high frequencys are asorbed as people fill the room and as backround noise increases.

The big question is how well do you like the 1584s?

Kojak,

I like them a lot. With my limited experience and lack of mixer (at least for now) I think they sound great. On the minus side the imaging and trebble are a not as good as on my hifi speakers (but still pretty good). However that is not an issue for Pro sound. On the plus side vocals are clear, bass is good, and in general the sound is very dynamic. I consider them a great buy.

I tried moving them of the floor using chairs, in this way they also sounded good. Due to the large woofer I think they work fairly well without a subwoofer. Whereas the 12" version/the two way speakers would probably need a subwoofer for good bass.

They might sound even better with the subwoofer, because then the 15" woofer could be spared the lowest frequencies.

Morten

Update,

got speaker stands from Carvin. Now the bass is not nearly as pronounced, but still sufficient without a subwoofer. That actually made the speakers a little bit more balanced.

Just bought Foundation 1 ($430) on Ebay. Now I own both Foundation 1 and Brick 1+assorted CD+G's. I guess I am almost ready for my karaoke party. I would however still like to get the mixer. Carvin just changed the C44 line. They are now all true four bus+mains and subw/six aux (4 monitor+2 effect) mixers. I think I will buy the C844. Looks like a nice mixer and until I need to mic an acoustic drum set the 8 channels should be enough.

Morten

that's a HELLUVA deal on Foundation 1!!

The C844 does indeed look like a great little mixer. The dual 9-band graphic eq doesn't hurt either. I looked at it in the cataloge and didn't see any stereo line input channels. It looks like you might have to use two seperate channel strips, (one for each side), to get stereo. At least with sliders instead of knobs adjusting the levels is a one-handed operation.

I can only guess that you are probably not using 12 gauge speaker wire.
Use 12 gauge wire. It will improve the bass, and you will have a better energy transfer across all frequencys. Resistance from speaker wires will affect power hungry bass first and the higher frequencys second. This means that the frequency responce will "slope" rather being flat. It will also improve your dampening which will "clean-up" the bass and help remove any muddiness or boomyness. Thiner wire is a waste of watts, and thicker wire MAY start to act like an antenna, (especially if you have some ham opr in the neighborhood that cheats and makes ground waves). Cops are notorious for interfearing with high current PA systems.

After you done the above, it'll be time for you to reach deep into ypur wallet and take out a couple of grand and buy yourself a limiter; an FM transmitter; and an antenna. Don't ask me why, cause I don't have a clue. I've been thinking about doing this since we only have 3 stations in the county. From my location I could broadcast a signal that would heard in our town only and not by the rest of the county. The town that I live in is surrounded by a mountainous terrain. If I were able to get an antenna set up on top of the ridge from my home, I could reach the entire county with out too much trouble. As far as I can tell, you don't need a license to operate a low power radio station as long as you don't interfear with a station that has been licensed by the FCC.

The Bill Of Rights is license enough.
Having the right of freedom of speach is rather meaningless if all you can do to express it is to yell real loud.

I was thinking about running a show once a week from 9 AM to 5PM on saturdays. Our county has a very active dept of parks and recreation and if I could get permission to broadcast from the local park the entire community could do karaoke or make local announcements or whatever on the air. I wouldn't have anything against letting a little kid tell his best joke for the neighborhood.

Post back and let me know what you think.

Kojak,

I think you misunderstood me. The bass now, with the speakers on the stands, is very balanced. Before, with the speakers on the floor, the bass was too pronounced. My speaker cables (15 feet) are slightly thicker than 12 gauge -- they just barely fit inside the Speakon connectors. Also the bass is very clean, not muddy at all. Due to pretty good speaker efficiency (100 dB spl/W/m) the monoblocks (150W RMS/channel at 8 ohm) seem sufficient for now. Also, since the monoblocks have XLR input and input attenuators they will match up perfectly with the mixer.

You are right about the mixer, when connecting a stereo device to the channel strip, two inputs must be used. However, there are rca tape in/outs where the input is controlled by a single knob. Whether that is more appropriate to use than the channel strips I haven't decided.

A radio station, as if all this equipment was not expensive enough. Can you get it on Ebay?

Thanks,

Morten

Morten,
I get the feeling that your speakwire is indeed 12 gauge. 10 gauge wire is considerably thicker and you would have to go out of your way to get it. I'm not saying that there's an availability issue, it's just that if you had 10 gauge, you would know it.

If you use the tape input/output you won't have any efx. You won't have the parametric eq adj found on the channel strips or any echo or chorus efx. This is true for both the input and the output.

About the radio station:
No I can't get it on eBay. I keep having problems with signing up for eBay and have givin up. One of thier stupid little messages to me said that I was giving them an invalid birthdate. Excuse me but I think that I know my own birthdate. I wasn't trying to tell them that I was born on the 31st day of a month that only has 30 days.
You can get a VERY low power transmittier for a couple of hundred bucks.

Kojak,

my speaker wire was bought in Denmark (I used to live there). It has a cross section of 4mm^2. I believe that is slightly thicker than 12 gauge (but not a lot). I also have 6mm^2 speaker cables, but they wont fit a speakon connector. I use them for bass on my hifi system.

Regarding the tape input and the music. My thought was to adjust the main eq. (either the built in octave ones or a stand alone 1/3 octave one) for best sound quality of the karaoke music. I would then use the channel eq on the voice.

BTW. would you send the music through the effects also or only the voice?

Morten

Morten,
It didn't occur to me that your speaker wire might be metric.

I failed to mention tha you can take any number of channel strips and assign them to a sub-mix. When you do this you can make individual adjustments to each channel at the strip, and you can bring the volume for all of them up or down at the control section of your mixer. This is how you mix back-up singers. If you have 3 back-ups you would boost the weakest singer and cut the strongest. You would then adjust them all as a sub mix to match the music and the solo artist.

I use efx for voice only. I learned this from an audio engineer at one of the studios in Burbank. You may use something like a panning phaser for music, but not for voice. You could use compression for both, but technically it's a process, and not an effect.
I'm sure that there are exceptions. All I can say is let your ears be your guide.

Kojak,

I am getting closer to buying that mixer... I am wondering whether I should get the 8 channel ($400) or add $300 and get a 16 channel. For karaoke 8 channnels seem enough. Even for a small band eight channels should be enough: guitars and basses would use their own amps, and 8 channels would allow four singers, a couple of drums mic'd as well as a keyboard.

Any input on 8 vs 16 channels?

Thanks

Morten

Morten,
As best as I can tell, the only differance between the C844 and the C1644 efx mixers is the number of channels, and price, (of course).
Eight channels is more than enough for karaoke, and you could indeed mix a small band, but I would go about it a little differantly than the way that you mentioned.
First, if we assume that you have 4 singers, 1 lead and 3 backups, you would then have 4 channels available for intstrumentaion.
All instruments must go to the mixer before they go to an amp or else you won't have a mix. Any instrument that doesn't go through the mixer will invarably end up being turned up louder than any one else.
Why have a mixer?
The level set indicator keeps things fair and well balanced.
The bass, rhythm, lead guitars, and keyboards would each get one channel.
The drums would go through the tape input.
I would mic the drums through a "Signal-Flex" MM-40, ($35-$40), or a comparable device. This jewel consists of 4, 1/4" TS input jacks with an input level control knob for each, and a 1/4" output with a control knob for the output. It is approx. 2X2X4". It runs off of a 9 volt battery, or a "wall wart". It allows you to balance 4 mics to each other and control the level sent from all 4 to the mixer. You can also use it to assign 4 backup singers to one channel, but then you would have only one eq or efx setting for all 4, and the longer signal path through it would not be the best thing for voice. I've never used one of these gadgets so I can only guess as to how well it does or doesn't work for voice.

Save it for drums.

Four channels is enough to run a show.
I have a Mackie 12 channel mixer, 4 mic and 4 stereo line level channels.
Mackie's smallest efx mixer has 12 channels, a nice compromise between 8 and 16 channels, but the products cataloge doesn't list prices. I think that my woman has eaten my Peavey cataloge, but to tell you the truth, I think that Peavey is overated and over priced, (just an opinion).
I've never used more than 3 mic channels, and 3 stereo line level channels. 1 stereo channel for my player, 1 for a 2nd player to provide interlude music, and one inplace of the efx return. The interlude music can be inputed into the tape input, and the efx can go to the efx return, and I don't really need to use three mic inputs. You, (or a pro), can get by with only 2 mic channels. Just provide 1 mic for single singers, and hand off the announce mic for duets, or go wireless for singers, 2 mics, one input.
Carvin's Pro-Mix 7 will give you everything that you need for $300. It has 4 stereo channels, (3 are mic channels), efx, and a level set indicator. The only thing that turns me off to the Pro-Mix 7 is the rack mount design. Unlike the C844 which needs adaptor ears to be rack mounted, the Pro 7 has a rackmount face plate without rounded edges. On the plus side, according to Carvin's product cataloge, the Pro-Mix 7 has a mono output that can be switched to a subwoofer output utilizing an internal 150Hz crossover.
I would think about that one for awhile.
It is my OPINION that a 16 channels is a little bit of an overkill for your needs.
I have a friend that is looking to me for help with building a system and I'm looking to replace my system with something a little lighter and more easily moved.
Post again before you buy, and let me know what you decide and why.
Maybe I'll have some more info for you by then.
Good Luck!
Kojak