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One time at a first gig the owner put in a slip and said Kathy and I will be next..  I said no you will take your turn.. He said hey I am paying you I turned off my system and said ok you owe me $100 for 2 hours we are gone. Nobody sings more than anybody else or sings twice in a row .. Nobody is shown favoritism as far as order goes.. Duets count for any singer and their que in the order is gone These are the simple rules and any rotaion which adheres works... .

BTW the owner took 10 steps towards the bar 10 steps back to me and said I like you when is our turn?

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I would have (and have) done the same thing.  Just because they own the place don't mean they are above any of THEIR own PAYING customers.  They wait their turn wether they are a new singer or not.

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All in all, Guys.  If it works for you then do it.  I just don't understand the insert
method.   Seems like a mass of confusion for me when people are constantly coming
in.  Guess I've been to too many places and heard complaints about this sort of
thing that I just can't warm up to it plus it doesn't seem very fair to me but if your customers accept it then that's what you should do.   I guess I keep looking at the thing of....if you've got 15 singers starting the show off with you and you keep inserting then that 15th person that has been with you all night is really getting the bum deal.  But maybe I'm missing something here.  I've gone over the insert methods that each of you have spelled out and I still can't see the fairness of it but
like I said.....if your customers accept it and like it then that's what you should do. Good Luck to all of you because KJ'ing is hard work.  It's definitely not all fun and games.  (Last comment on this subject)  :handshake:

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No matter what method you use it should be consistent and you should stick with it unless you post the change so EVERYONE knows what's going on.

Why doesn't one method always work?  Because some places have 5-10 singers walk in all at once (or as I experienced once 40-50) and others have couples come in throughout the night where only one sings.

There are lots of ways to run a rotation and you have to match it to the venue.

I know of at least three ways to run a rotation that I've tried and a couple I can't imagine trying.  Some methods work better than others but it depends on how your singers come into your venue.  Do you have 3-4 singers and then add 20, slowly build to a rotation of 20-30 from 2-3, start the night with a full house of 20-30 deep, some other possibility?

Sing one bring one works well unless you have 'packs' of singers coming in.  Then the rotations never seem to end.

Slipping in new singers can work but it depends on how many new singers and are they all in the same rotation?  In other words, if you have 3-4 singers and have 20 walk in do you try this:

1
2
3
4
1
5new
2
6new
3
7new
4
8new
- now what? 9-20 or 1new5new?

Strict new at the end of the rotation?  Which one?  The current or the next one if you've already started the 'new' section?

Most don't work if you have packs of singers.  The rotations never seem to end and it can get crazy in a VERY short period of time.  It's only that much worse if you're not used to dealing with a large rotation.

If you deal with large packs of singers coming in the door you sometimes have to get creative.  I had 4-5 singers and had more than 100 people show up in less than 15 minutes.  I had almost 20 new singers which I added to the end of the current rotation but kept getting new singers during that rotation.  What did I do?  I cut the rotation - put in the 4 singers I had originally, finished the new singers and started a new rotation.  It had stabalized by then since many of them only sang once but it kept the 4-5 people that came early to sing in the bar and coming back for my shows later because I was trying to be fair.  The large group of new people had no idea the otheres had already sung earlier and that they were put in the middle of the 'new' people.  Was it 'totally' fair?  No, the original singers got to sing one more song than any of the 'new' people  but their wait wasn't over 2 hours either.

It's tricky sometimes but you have to adjust to your clientle and how they come into the venue.  Admittely, my situation was unusual - not everyone has busloads of patrons show up at your venue.

In the end, keep the rules fair as possible, easily explainable, and maintain control - it's YOUR show.  These few basics will keep them coming back time and time again.

I make  mine real simple, all new singers go to the end of the list. If the rotation just started over again then the new singers wait until the rotation gets to them again. If it hasn't started over again then, the new singers get to go up quicker as the end of the list comes quicker.
If you slip them in the rotation, you are still making someone wait longer to get to thier turn again. So to the end of the list they go, if they want to sing more, get there earlier next time.
Not everyone is going to agree to the way you do it but as the others sy keep it consistent from week to week and the regulars will get used to how you do it, whether they like it or not if they show up they know what to expect.

My 2 cents:  I use the Disneyland approach for the first rotation, and the first rotation only.  After that I go to the insertion method.

My problem with the Disneyland method after the first rotation is this.  If I'm singer 1, then immediately after I sing, I should get put back in line.  Now if 5 singers come in and you put them at the end of the current rotation, you've just allowed all 5 people to cut in front of me.  How is that the most fair way of doing it?

You start your show with 10 singers ...9:00 comes and singer #1 comes up to sing their 1st song ..and since  you have a sing one bring one policy they hand in their 2nd song request.  Now in theory they are singer #11?   Now you get 6 new song requests as singer #1 is singing their 1st song.   Now do the 6 singers go after singer #10...or after singer #1 2nd song who handed in their slip already  ?

When do you start or stop your rotation.... If you have a sing one bring one policy the rotation order is always changing... People get mixed in automatically on when they handed in their slip ...  (disney land)   A sing one bring one policy is like when its your turn for the ride .. your place is automatically saved at the end of the line... You're not waiting at the gate saying... HEY ANYONE WANT TO GET IN FRONT OF ME BEFORE I TAKE ANOTHER RIDE....  

Now answer this question...What is a reasonable amount of time to have to wait to sing a song...... Be honest....   "As long as it takes" .. is not an acceptable answer.
How long are YOU willing to wait  to sing between songs?

For me, if I start the show with 5 slips, those are my first 5 singers.  Any slips that come in during those 5 songs go to the end of that rotation.  Any songs that come in during those songs also go to the end of the rotation.  When I get within 2 songs of the first singer, I start mixing new singers in to the next rotation, since I've already grabbed the disc for the first singer.

I do occasionally make exceptions to this, but not very often on the first rotation.  If the first rotation starts growing out of control, I will sometimes start mixing singers into the second rotation before the first one is done, just to reward those that were there in the beginning.

This is exactly what i'm getting at.  Instead of 1 or 2 getting inserted in, now you will have to wait for 5 new singers all at the same time.  This way doesn't get back to the older singers any quicker, it makes their overall wait actually longer.

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Lonnie, the point is, the start of the rotation... not the TOTAL rotation.

People that like this method know that they're following certain people. The illusion is yes, the new singers and the old singers get more equal time. But when you see twelve people walk in, and hand up slips, you KNOW you're going to wait a bit.

I used to do the insert method. For those that are making the stance that your method is better, please understand that I did it this way when I FIRST started karaoke.

BUt after going to one show where ALL new singers went to the end, it was just deemed fairer. i liked knowing who I was following, and if you came in after the start of the round, you were just going to wait. If you came in twoards the end of the rotaiton, you got very lucky and were able to get up sooner!

So here I am early to the show and hand in my slip and now I'm singer #1
SInce you start you show on time I'm up and singing at 9:00PM .  In the meantime before 9:00pm you have a small rotation 6 singers.  So now singer #5 is getting ready to sing and it is now 9:30 give or take. But in that 30 minutes 4 more people decided to hand in slips.  So now its 9:50 and I think I'm getting ready to sing but 3 people who came in 3 minutes ago hand in slips.... So I wait ...now its  another 15minutes -- I've been waiting an HOUR to sing not too bad ..But God I hope no one else comes in before you call my name otherwise I'll have to keep waiting for the slips to stop coming in.  So if I get to your show at the right time I don't have to wait at all...  But the singer who got to you show early hoping they could sing a few songs just has to wait and wait until NO NEW SINGERS COME IN.
I'm not sure if thats Fair or just LUCK that they get to sing ......

That is the entire argument, everyone says it's the fair way, I still don't understand how & guess I never will.  As a singer, I could care less WHO I follow, as long as I don't see the same singer up more times before me.  I want to be up as many times as I can & as fast as possible.  Like  I said before, adding new singers at the end could theoretically produce a rotation that would never start over (again - highly unlikely).  

I have tried the line method thinking I would give it a shot a couple years back, I didn't do it for more than a few days though because of the complaints I got.  I don't think it's as complicated as people like to make it out.  It also helps to balance out the new singers vs the old.  Either way is going to produce wait times & obviously the more people that come in, the longer the wait time - either way.
I'm not saying it's any better than the line method, but it does work at my shows & that is basically what matters - do what works for you.

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exactly.

I'm glad you can make it work Lon, I really am! but I've seen the insert method abused more times than I'd ever care to count. The add on the end works best as there's less chance of abusing the "bump me up" philosophy.

I never said that you or Jam or anyone else wasn't being fair with the insert method. Only that I preferred the other method being discussed, as do my customers!

See ya on Friday buddy!

heyyyyy I wanna go!

I have sang for many many years and only Kj'd for 3 or 4 but my biggest gripe when I was singing was this...Lets say in the first rotation the kj would open his helper would be no 2 then me .. In the second rotation the kj would sing then his helper then all the new singers then me... I would go ballistic...For I was being bumpd ...If all the new were added before the kj and his buddy it was fair...Thats the way I have run it for years but sometimes somebody like jamkaraoke comes along and makes good sense . The real fair method would be new singers are inserted before the current singer . Then they would automatically have the same wait time as everybody else. I am seroiuosly considering it but I do like to get new singers up in a reasonable amount of time esp if they are good... Rotation fairness is one of the makers or breakers of any show but  I will reiterate on a previous post if nobody sings more than anybody else the method of inserting is something that the singers get used to and expect but be consistent be fair and talk on the mic let everybody know what is goin on dont be formal but be fair dont show favoritisims and any method will be successful...

I once had a gig in the V where under 21 had to leave at 9p I would let them do two at a time and all the regulars understood and cheered but everybody knew what was going on thats all that it takes Fairness Fairness Fairness..And communication...

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Knightshow, I use the same method I beleive that you do and it works for us, if you get there early you always get to sing more (usually one or two times) than someone who gets there after an hour or two.
Our list of singers is only about 20 to 25 singers by the 3 hour, so most get to sing three to four songs, maybe five if you got there at 7 pm. We play for 4 hours usually (sometimes 4 1/2) and most people check the list when it gets close to 10:30 pm  to decide if they might have a chance to sing again and leave if it looks doubtful.
The method of inserting the new singer on the list ahead of the singer who is presently singing would most likely be even more fair, but it involves more in keeping track of the list and could create other problems if you didn't stay on top of it.
Our list is numbered and we use the same number to keep track on our computer list. If Joe B. is number 3 on our list, his name is entered afyter his song as Joe B 3
and my wife will enter several songs in the computer for each singer and keep the rotation in order on the Computer as well. All I have to do is look down at the screen and if singer #5 is singing look for who's listed as singer #6 and call thier name when it thier turn. We have almost no down time as we are calling the next singer while the music is ending for the singer before and when they pick up the mike the song starts.

I use Sax n Dotty on my computer to do my rotation, so she can play with the slips all she wants it won't matter.

And with behavior like like I guarentee her and her party would find their way to the back of my rotation.  I support new people coming to my shows but there is also a small page in my karaoke book that states the rules of my rotation and that they will not be changed.  It seems like I'm being a jerk, but my patrons appreciate the fact that EVERYONE gets a fair turn, and if they try to cheat or heckle me they will find their way in the back of the line.

I have not experienced this but I can see where this is true if your regulars are water sippers or don't consume as much as a new person who may be making up for lost time, assuming they haven't arrived from another show.

We, like knightshow and bowfishn, use the "first come, first serve" method, which  has served us well though the years.   As a side note, while it has happened, it is rare for us to have a group of 4 - 10 new singers walk in at once.

As singers we, like a10cgirl, prefer the "first come, first serve" method.  To me the insertion method allows for the bar hopper who knows those karaoke venues that mix in new singers and know they will be up to sing in 1 to 4 songs (from what I've seen in the description) from when they walk in the door and grab a book.  I would imagine a bar hopper could sing quite a bit, without spending a dime, by knowing which venues use the insertion method.  Additionally, as a singer I don't know whether or not it's a fair rotation and whether or not someone is getting bumped or how many songs it is until my "turn".  

Susie

p.s.  Regardless of which method works for you, three cheers for a long rotation as it is the sign of a successful show!

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I used to put everyone at the end of the rotation but found at most of my shows where I have 40+ singers the people who got there early were getting ripped off because while the first five people were singing I would get 5 more that would go at the end of the rotation and then while those five were singing I would get 10 more that would go at the end of the rotation and then while those 10 were singing I would get 15 more that would go at the end of the rotation and now those 5 people that were there at 9 to sing were waiting for 2 hours to sing again.  I switched to the insert method and now the early birds definitly sing more.  I think it all depends on what kind of crowd you have really.  If you have the kind of come early stay all night crowd the disneyland or first come first served works great.  However if you have a crowd like mine that dribbles in slowly all night then it's quite unfair to those who got there early.

good point! And that may be the crux of the matter!  :hi5: