Karaoke Forums

The rankin' system average is "6"......not a "9"......most of all of us are average...at least I know I am....why anyone would want to get "9s" is beyond me.....unless there self esteem is so bad they need the strokes of fluff rankin'....

and why is a song ranked "6"....need a reason...well the reason may only be that the sub was average.....not almost perfect as a "9" would imply.....

any ranking system is sort of a popularity contest...even the national charts are based on sales and air play.....a professional can put together a recording that is product of many hours of work....and their recording may be judged as an artistic achievement by the critics, but if the sales and airplay are not there....well try try again....

personally I don't think "6" or "7" are bad scores.....but if everyone gets "9s" and "10s" just because they sub a song and that sub is average at best then the highest ranking sub means nothing.....gettin to the highest rankin songs should mean something......and it's ok to be average....most of us are...

so if i give a 6 or 7 its only saying that by comparison I think the sub is average  and to get a 9 it is near perfection...as the ranking chart states....finally if you sub is average doesn't mean its bad....and everyones oppinion is based on their individual likes and tastes in music...so it's very possible that one person would listen to a sub and find it to be average and another person find it wonderful.....it doesn't make either of them bad or wrong....just different in their oppinions...

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[glow=blue]Tequila & A Song
KKid[/glow]

I cant agree KKid at all.
When I sub I strive to get a 10, not because I want fluff or my ego stroked, although that is a good feeling no doubt.  I do it because I am striving to do my best and as far as I am concerned a 6 or a 7 is WAY beyond my standards.

Now I am not talking air play here, these are not songs that are new to the public, these are, for the most part, tried and true, hits at one time.
so I should NOT be judged on whether you like the song or not, but how did I present it.

in other words, a 1 through 10 should be judged on technical standards, not personal preference.  If I miss a note, or if my timing is a little off or if I don't slide into that note just right, or maybe the song is way out of my range, even though I hit the notes you can hear the struggle to get there in my singing.
these are the things the the songs should be judged on.
so when I say if your going to give me a 9 then you need to give me a reason or don't bother critiquing my submission.

if its below a 9, then say, hey you did good, blah blah blah, but at the bridge of the song or during the chorus, you fella tiny bit flat or your timing was off on woman, you were singing on the back side of the beat instead of on top of it.
so you got an 8 from me. OR your got a 6 from me because you were constantly a little flat throughout the song and your should work on your pitch in that area.

I have no issues with someone that does not sing well submitting a song and sometimes I even enjoy it, but don't ask me to critique a bad singer, cause I will,
so again I will repeat Di's statement.
If you cant stand the heat, don't pick the critique button.

All I am really saying is if you give me a lower score, whatever that may be, tell me why. not to stoke but so that I can improve.

Just to toss my head down on the table so you can kick it around a bit

I consider myself to be a decent singer, but when it comes to critiquing, while I can pick out little nuances of my own voice and body of work, I often have a hard time doing the same for others.  Perhaps it is fear of sounding pompous, but I think it is more that I do not feel qualified to give an accurate and helpful critique.  I know how to do what I know how to do and that is sing, so I usually will leave the critiquing up to the others on the site, unless someone specificaly comes up and asks me.

But therein lies another problem.  The old addage that "too many cooks spoil the soup".

Imagine your a new member of this site, and you submit your first song looking for some help on how to improve.  Lets say you get 20 comments.  Perhaps three of them will be truly helpful, from people who are highly knowledgable about these kinds of things.  The other 17 comments say things like "You were pitchy" or "You were a bit off HERE AND THERE" (my personal fav). "Here and there" helps no one if you don't say where "here and there" is.  3 helpful reviews and 17 useless ones would make me feel pretty damned lousy about myself (i'd prolly leave the site for good), and that was probably never the intent of the 17 who made those comments.

What I'm trying to say in my own f'd up way, is that even if someone genuinely wants to help out, they may not be able too, not because they're dumb or anything....they just may not have the ability to truly do it.  I make movies for a living....does that mean I can review them?  Not everyone can walk and chew gum at the same time.

One thing that may be an option in the future, and this is something we used to do on a fanfilm website is have a panel of people, well versed in reviewing films, or at least highly knowledgeable about the process of filmmaking.  Those would be the ones who gave out the true constructive reviews (I believe there were six of them).  Sometimes folks around here try to be helpful, but just come off as rude, even if they are really trying to help.  They just do not have the know-how to do it.....of course...there are some who are just truly rude anyway...hehe.

Perhaps, with the right amount of liquor in you, this will all make sense someday.

Just My very humble opinon.

Good Night
Jason

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Simon: Alright, so we're missing the echo! Robert, I can honestly say you're the worst singer I've ever heard in my life!"

Robert: Thank you!

From X Factor.

YES....!!!!! I was thinking the very same thing. a small panel of folks that would critique because they can and know how. and only they would be able to really critique.
if the moderator is watching, how about it?
does that sound feasible?

What you are suggesting Jason makes alot of sense.

There are as many differing wants/needs (not to mention unspoken stipulations) from individuals within the Critique/Rating area, as there are members submitting into that area.

A Critiquing panel offered to those that request a Critique, would be an asset to members genuinely wanting this.  Members requesting opinions from this "Critiquing panel" wouldn't need to feel as if they are imposing on people by asking them to listen, and take time for an analysis. There'd be a group offering their time. The goal being to help the vocalist improve.

Additionally, the goal of the "panel" would be spelled out.    A mission statement of sorts not unlike the catalyst that led a few to feel compelled to start this type of thread.

The 1-10 ranking scale wouldn't be a part of this.  That's just the contest aspect, and in some ways appears counter productive to what the goals of such a panel would be

another site i used had this method of a panel of judges who would offer markers those who wanted critique...but the judges were kept a secret or were meant to be secret, but everyone knew who they were...and were obviously members from the site...so then people begin once again to question who was giving the critique, the qualifications for being able to decide what was good and wrong with the songs...would this work over here?? i mean really work?? it just depends on who the people were...if they had the knowledge and tact of jazzy yes perhaps it would work....dunno ma mind open on that one hehehe

I would be much less inclined to trust a panel of anonymous critiquers.  Just as judges, and jurors don't wear bags over their heads. I see no reason people wanting to help others would need anonymity. In fact a concern I'd have regarding anonymity with such a setup, would be the tendency for some singers to feel that the less favorable critique is a result of a faceless critiquer's dislike for them.

well i didn't see much of that happening steven, if anything the panalists were very helpful and tactful in what they said, but because people found out who they were they then questioned not so much to the peoples faces but behind the backs...well so and so is a panalist and have you heard them sing who are they...they aint got no formal qualifications or experience in the music industry kind of thing.....plus i noticed back then some peoples subs asked for critique but didn't get it because obviously that day the panelists were not online sort of thing....they obviously had lives too ... so the idea does have positives along with negatives....i really do not think there is 1 way that truly works 100 per cent.

i do think phil as soon as he has times offers us the other option of critique without rankings.....then we have 4 cat's to choose from...surely we should all find some peace and karma then within the site....i think its not so much the critique, rudeness can always be answered ...the rankings are the thorn in most peoples side.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

You don't really mean this now, do you?

for the main we are all adults that use this site, we understand and need to accept that we all have views opinions etc....i do really think with a new cat critique without rankings there will be no need for a panel of judges...are judges then not superior and deciding whats good and not so good...you believe that will take away the competition element of the rankings...in my opinion it will just make it as bad...cause then people will be saying oh we want a list of the judges fav tunes each week or month....it just esculates.

9 panelists even with all their so called qualifications can we really believe it? yes we can if someone like jazzy was chosen because he voice carries every bit her knowledge and that is what people look for....there are many on this site who claim to be semi/pro singers....would i pay to see em...heck no! so if they got a job as a panelist would this amuse me too right it would i would pee my pants laughing.

Who chooses the 9 people?? if your face fits and your liked kinda thing i think....i have a lot of reservations about it. Did i also add that it didn't work on another site and many on here used that site so why would it work here?

bring the 4th option in i say and see what happens.

  You may be right Missy... but ya still need to be prepared for "a lot of subjectivity".  As long as thats okay... then cool.  



Yup... who are you competing with ... and how/for what?  
    You know you are gonna be critiqued for certain elements of your sub:
For Example (certainly not a complete list)

1. Pitch/vocal control/Timber
2. Mix (blend of voice with music, high/low qualities, use/non use of effects, etc)
3.  Cover of the song...(if not original work). If original "whether it catches the listener ~ (much as we do now when we listen to the radio... what elements make us likely to want to hear it again ~~ or not.)
(Many other things.. but this is just an example of the kinds of things that might be on the list)

 As for the competitive element...... what would you be competing for.... the "nicest" comments.  Whoopie!!  Without the *rank" ..... and the *top ten list* .... where is the TRUE competition?  As you said.... MOST of us are ADULTS.  



 Welllllllll... as it is... and will remain even if going to "critique/no rank" ... ya have some people "critiquing" that don't have a "real" clue.  At least this way ... you'd of at least seen a list of the qualifications..... and voted.  (See original post for details... not sure you read that part).  
   


 Again, please read the original post I made .... I "thought" I explained this.  As for ... will it work..... one never knows till they try.  But... if we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we've always gotten.

And ALLSTAR..... YES..... I really DID mean that.



 I don't care.... I don't ask for critiques..... nor give them very often.  But.... after reading some the totally rediculous and petty Sh** thats been posted recently .... I think in a way..... it'll be more of the same.  I'm not sure, but my gut tells me you will still have a lot of bickering .. and hurt feelings.  

If ya want change.... cool ....... but be sure the change will improve things, is all I'm saying.  

And again.... I was just offering an opinion...... not trying to "stir the pot".  Hope that is understand.  

Have a good day all ~~  :yes:

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

nah that's fair enough shot, i am just going from experience and seeing it first hand thats all on another site...as i said my mind is open on the subject...from what i saw over on the other site...peoples feelings were not harmed and many for a while did offer their subs for critique...but over time you saw the judges comments get less and less because of their time, it takes some dedication and will the judges really have all this extra time...as it is people are complaining about how quick the list moves and they cant get to listen as much as they would like.

I just think that perhaps to see what happens when phil finishes his changes, or we need 9 people like jazzy with the skill and knowledge, if that was the case would i use the judges...too right i would.

I think when you put a sub for critique if you take account of what everyone says then make your own analasis of your sub...and work on 1 thing at a time from those critiques ya can't go that far wrong.

Shot i honestly don't know as ive said ma mind is open to it...and if all else fails it is as you say another option for the site.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Where do I sign up???

You shouldn't get dizzy, no, but you can get very out of breath, like you've been running.  I did that today, I was trying a really hard song (opera) and I felt like I'd been running, at least as far as my breathing.  Good singing is definitely hard work. Personally I am a very lazy singer  Learning to control your breathing can be a life-long exercise (it certainly has been for me but that may be because I'm lazy!).  Of course asthma, colds, allergies, etc. will have an affect on your voice. It shouldn't sound nasally, though, unless you are not opening your mouth wide enough or you are forcing the sound through your nose (like trying to sound like Sonny Bono).

It's not just getting enough breath but also learning how to use it so you don't let it all out at once (and end up running out). Most people, like me, have both problems--not taking big enough breaths and using them up too fast.

The lack of breath support affects tone, which makes you go out of tune.

I hope that helps!

But in general most of us are just having fun and probably don't care too much about all that technical stuff.  Me, I just like to sing, record, and let others listen, it's a big boost for my ego! But I don't really care if anyone critiques me....I am usually my own worst critique anyway!!

Much love to all!!

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Why does it bother you if someone else wants to be critiqued? You don't have to have that feature turned on.

There are some of us who know they will never be professional singers but still like to improve their singing and like to get others' points of view on it.  For me it's been a lifelong challenge to improve.  Even if it's just for fun, for me it's fun to learn and to improve, and to sing better.

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

THanks Slanoue,  It always did feel to me as if there was a certain amount of conditioning required, breathing technique, etc.

A person who is normally tense, and a shallow breather, will show this when they sing, no ?

Yes, definitely.  Being tense is not a good idea.  Breathing shallow is not a good idea.  Those are both fairly easy to fix.

Tense?--relax!  LOL  shake yourself loose, jump around, get a massage, drink, whatever you have to do.  It's karaoke, it's okay to drink  Avoid caffeine.  Taking deep breaths also relaxes you...

Taking shallow breaths?--Take deeper breaths.  Even if you  haven't learned how to use them well, it will improve your singing.  You already know how to breathe, right? Go to shout and see what happens.  The type of breath you AUTOMATICALLY take for a loud shout is the kind of breath you need to sing.  Singing is just kind of a sustained shouting.

This is what I was taught in voice lessons.  We learned the song with the written music, of course, not karaoke.  But you can print out the lyrics and work with them.

Figure out ahead of time where you want to take a breath.  Usually you want to take one between each sentence or small section in the lyrics (usually it's known as a phrase).  You don't know want to be taking breaths in weird places where it will stand out funny.  If you have a really long phrase, you can either take an extra-big breath or sneak one somewhere (but only if you really have to).  Planning your breaths ahead of time really helps you.

Then you can look at each phrase and figure out which parts of the phrase you think might be important (and therefore should be louder than or emphasized more than other parts).

Listen to the original song if you have it and you can probably learn some of these things from the original, too.

I usually learn a new song that way. I print out the lyrics and make little notations with a pencil to remind me of places where the notes go up or down, last longer, etc. as I listen to the song a few times.

After you've practiced the song for a while, record it just to listen to it.  If you have a place where it sounds a little flat, nasal, pinched, etc. you can make a note  on your paper and try to fix it next time.

It also helps to sing while looking in a mirror, or if you can, while videotaping yourself.  Your shoulders should be a little back (not slumped), your back straight (but not stiff), your feet slightly apart.  If you are hunched over, you are constricting your breathing.  Always stand when you sing, don't sit.  It's a LOT harder to sing while sitting.  Make sure you open your mouth WIDE when you sing (most people don't open their mouths wide enough) and try to have a nice round sound when you sing.  If you feel it is too much, you can always draw it back a little.

Anyway, these are just a few little things I've learned from years of voice lessons (probably more than you wanted to know !!) that help with breathing and learning songs.

Good luck!

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~Suzanne Lanoue~

Cindy, sounds like a fine idea.

I had this idea regarding a format where the chatroom could be closed off for critique for short strings of time, allowing for 15 minute slot presentations, led by one critiquer & followed by a Q&A type situation.A dialogue type format.  This can be a less formal means of communicating, yet still serve a purpose.  There can be a written out critique pasted in the chat area during that time.... followed by questions to the critiquing panel, or moderator present.

I then started thinking that this might last one or two sessions, and die from lack of commitment.

Still wanted to put it on the table as an option.

Anyway, time to get a hamburger  :drums: