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And this is why I only show the next 3 singers. Those 3 never get bumped down ever. However, #4 may get bumped down depending on the flow of the night.

Again, it's all about being consistent and when asked, transparent about how it is managed.

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-Chris

Coming into this thread late, but thought I'd offer my rule of thumb.

I will bump a singer if they need to leave... but if I bump them, it's their last song of the evening and I won't accept anything more from them.

Edit: And we have to be in the rotation they haven't sung in yet.

Maybe the problem is that it is called a rotation instead of a line.

People know what a line is. They know it is unfair to expect preferential treatment, and (in general) respect the consequences of trying to cut in ahead of people who are already in line.
They know that if they get there late the line may be long and they will have to wait a long time.

A line is a known given. It empowers the customer to decide if the reward is worth the wait.

If you made your singers actually stand in line to sing would a person just walking in the door expect that they could just waltz up and place themselves 1st or 4th or 5th at the front?

When you introduce salting, bribes, or just outright favoritism, it gives them reason to become suspicious and/or contentious.



People may not like knowing it is a long wait but they hate uncertainty and unfairness even more.

Why should they get preferential treatment just because they have to leave? If they can't get there early like everyone else, then suffer the consequences.

Do you know how many times I've heard that excuse? And then an hour later they're still here.

Host: I thought you said you had to leave?
Singer: Oh, I changed my mind.

If someone asks me if they can sing next because they have to leave, I will tell them to ask the next singer if they'd be willing to give up their spot for you. If they say yes, fine... otherwise, it's a no go.

Anyway, this thread is about accepting bribes/bumps for money not about how you run your rotation.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

Well he did say IF that happened, they don't sing anymore anyway.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

What Smoothedge69 said above...

I don't know that there's any such thing as a perfect rotation... No matter how it's done, someone will inevitably get upset. I don't think it can be avoided. Nevertheless, I run our rotations the same as Smoothedge69 has suggested.. not perfect, but the closest thing to being "fair" as I can make it.

Getting back to bumping-for-money... I've never allowed it... but then, nobody's ever offered me enough money to make it tempting.. After all, they say everyone has their price... It's just that I don't know what mine is right now.

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Earl
(BS, PHD & Certified CurmuDJeon)

[font=Times New Roman]"Growing Old may be mandatory... but growing UP is still optional."[/font]

A kj friend was hired at a small bar I used to go to but I don’t like the kj that plays there before. He sings two or three times within the rotation counting duets; socializes outside while taking smoke breaks, dead air, etc. Customers got him fired due to numerous complaints.

Anyway, my friend (he subs for me when I go on vacation) is also one of those kj’s who run a strait rotation. Top to bottom, adding new ones at the end. No bumping, no bribes accepted & will not compromise his integrity when it comes to rotation. Average number of singers is 15 - 18, I’ve never seen it go over 20.

His contract was to do karaoke from 8 to 12:30 am ($180). Bar closes at 2. At his cut-off time he let 3 more singers to sing. At 12:40 there were eight guys left in that last rotation & offered him $5 each to sing. The manager told him he’s not going to pay him that extra time; it’s up to him to continue, accept their offer or just wrap it up. He decided to let those 8 guys sing one more song each & told them he’s not accepting their $5.

Anyway, 6 guys gave him $5 ea. He felt bad & tried to return their money but the guys won’t take it. He said it also happened last week and beginning to see a pattern he’s not comfortable with. What would you do?

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To be fortunate enough to derive an income from a source as fulfilling as karaoke music has got to be as close to heaven as we can get here on earth!

Why would you not want to get paid extra for doing something extra? That seems like common sense and has nothing to do with ethics. Run your business like a business and you may be surprised at what might happen.

No bumps at my shows, but I go ( paid from ) from 5 pm to 8 pm believe it or not. It's an older snowbird crowd. So if anyone still wants to sing after that "no tip in the jar" no sing. That's after I clear it with the bar tender to go longer. Strange but true.

I've never accepted a bribe. I did once have a drunken tool offer me $100 to bump him ahead of everybody. He was already next. I accepted the $100 because I didn't like his general attitude and didn't feel bad about collecting a fee. Still don't feel bad about it.

As a rule, though, I'm pretty straightforward in my tipping rules. I'll obviously accept a tip from a client for a private party, but my public, weekly shows? Not a chance. I've had people offer simply because they liked the job I did -- no ulterior, "...and maybe you get me up to sing an extra time or two?" motive -- and turned them down flat. Part of that is that it's easy to turn down a $5 in exchange for the appearance of integrity, but I think I'd be similarly firm with a larger sum. It's not worth it to me for my other singers to see money exchanging hands and start to wonder if I'm on the take.

As rotations go, however, I'm completely okay with salting the rotation. As a rule, I run busy shows -- some of the most intensely populated in my area. Part of the success I've had is absolutely related to integrity -- my singers know that I'm not going to sing more than them, or let someone jump the rotation because of friendship, money, or boobs -- and I think part of it is that I am transparent about how I run that rotation. When I have a queue of 15 before the first song is done, I'm completely okay with peppering first-timers in between everybody else's second song. I think it helps the first wave of singers to have consistency -- from the second rotation forward, they'll likely always be the same distance apart -- instead of an always-increasing distance between performances. I also think that, in a busy karaoke environment, the second-wavers may not even have arrived particularly late, and they shouldn't be penalized as stridently as those who arrive in the last hour hoping for three songs.

Rick, these people might start expecting this particular treatment every week, and there may be times when the KJ just can't do it. It's also a small step away from now expecting to be jumped ahead of others who are waiting to sing in the regular Rotation.... logic being, if you're willing to put me up at the end of the show for a TIP (after you've already announced "NO MORE SINGERS."), then you might be willing to put me up ahead of everyone else whenever I want to give you a TIP for doing so.

When I was hosting shows, I was like this too. There was one exception for me. At one place where I was doing a show every other Saturday, I had this one Regular there who used to ask for songs I didn't have in my library. I would write them down and I used to go shopping for as many of those requests as I could find. I usually had filled most of his requests by my next show there. This guy never specifically asked me to get the stuff, but I did. He offered me $10 at the end of the night each show after that. At first, I refused to accept it, but he kept insisting because he was happy I was getting his song requests.

True, very true. The entire time we developed our system, that's what we strove for. "How can we make the most money?"

Here's a link to an analysis I did a few years back of our singer database and what was spent.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

I should probably revisit this, since none of the relevant bribe data is on there. Still, despite that it's an impressive $31k@year spent on the system. I have updated data after we enabled bribes and puts the year end take on the system closer to $42k.

If KaraoQ can gain market penetration, they have a very very good chance. Everyone voicing an opinion on this board is a minority... We are not the singers we service. For every KJ, there is 30 people in rotation outnumbering the single KJ. My experience, my singers loved bribes.

Updated data.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Some notes about the new format of data. We switched from whole dollars to 1/100's (pennies) of a dollar for credits. So let's say;
1015 = $10.15

Feel free to dig your own conclusions from the data, but it's neat. It's the only thing ever run that came close to what karaOQ is trying to do. As said, if they can secure some venues, get some penetration, they'll succeed.

From the IT security perspective . . . One conclusion I dug from the data is that if I was a patron of yours I would not appreciate you posting my nickname, email address, and phone number on the net without my consent.

Bumping for cash AKA "Kardashian Karaoke" is just another 20oz slug of Red Bull fueling the race to the bottom for our society. Just because you "can" make money doing something doesn't mean you should.

I've turned down $100 bills offered to me from 1st timers that never returned over those that are there spending money nightly. Bumps for money just won't happen at my show - yes I get the "are you nuts" look everytime and I just reply, THESE are my regular customers, they wait JUST like everyone else & know it.

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Consent was given when they agreed to the eula given at sign up. (We own all information) Another thing to note, it's not any more or less dangerous than a phone book.

I hope you don't take my following explanation as anything other than a "This is why this is happening"

I understand a lot of people's grief with paid bumps/bribes. A lot of us started off as patrons/singers. A lot of us would always say to ourselves, "If I had my show, I would do this fairly, or that fairly" based on our experience, but what karaoq (and autokdj/Q-up) is doing is appealing to a newer, younger generation of not only patrons, but venue owners and karaoke manufacturers as well.

Key words here are "Monetization" and "Microtransactions

I just spent a year at a company called "Machine Zone". They make a game called "Game of War". I built up their IT department, got some good pay and stock and quit. The company thrives on studying the triggers that get people to part with the money floating around in their pockets. They study books on "Gambling triggers" They had entire departments dedicated towards studying this. Speaking purely from a business perspective, they are one of the top dogs of the mobile gaming market right now because they understand the how's and why's of monetization.

These kids today with their mobile devices, facebook accounts, that's a lot of really good data, especially for the venue's and karaoke manu's. My group learned that most of these young folks have played "Candy Crush" or other "Pay to win" type games and a bump feature is not an unfair concept to them.

As said, I ran a wildly successful show for over a decade pushing, learning, studying, and codifying these concepts. They were pushed on us by our shrewd old Japanese business owners, and over the years I've heard every excuse possible from these forums about why we were successful. "It's an Asian bar! You're in Silicon Valley! It's that video stream you run!"

It's success was because it's a solid and time tested business model given a modern twist with microtransactions and monetization. Even if the majority of the folks on this forum don't like it, the world has changed. I miss the old karaoke days, I miss seeing funny video backgrounds on Laserdisks, I miss rotations of 8 to 10 people, I miss all these things but times have changed, crowds have changed.

Paraphrasing Wooderson in "Dazed and Confused" Us KJ's keep getting older, but our crowds stay the same age.

You can call it whatever you want, I wouldn't care if you labeled it as "MicroButtKissing."

A "Bribe" is still a bribe.

You can be bribed.

I can not.

I'm sure that "Digi-Buster Karaoke's" interest is to see how that bribing system could be integrated into their streaming service.... because giving receipts to paying customers isn't at the top of their priority list... (and why should it be? They already have the money.)


But I'll bet there's other reasons why their "cash-paying customers" are not getting a receipt.... (Why would you want to create a paper trail that might be used against you?)

Chip your response is like all the others. Sadly it's all "Well I never!" And personal anecdotes about why "Well I never!".

I'm being very careful about how I'm phrasing my responses. I don't want this turning into the usual cross examination and Socrates arguments.

I have my data. You're seeing the responses from my customers on Facebook. It was well received and even missed by the overwhelming majority of my customers.

I agree with Toqer about things changing.

There are remote check-in apps that allows customers to submit themselves and their songs to the rotation without even being on site. Some KJ's love it, others would never do it. I bet NO ONE would have allowed it back in the early 90's. But it is 2015.....

Some KJ's have eliminated books and use kiosks and/or web sites that can be searched via mobile apps. Others stick with books. What works for one may not work for another.

There are obviously customers for KaraoQ. But if you don't want to give the impression you can be bribed, just don't use it. IMO, There isn't much else redeeming about the app other than providing a simple way to accept tips from people that don't carry cash.

All this said, I do not think that bribing/bumping for a spot in the rotation is something we will see karaoke patrons clamoring for. I don't think anyone will lose singers to a show that uses the KaraoQ app.

Traditional karaoke isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I am all for monetizing things as well, but I am monetizing in other ways. I am being more efficient with my operations, developing easier methods of providing on-demand song request fulfillment, and providing (marketing services to my venues) among other things. I don't believe passing the costs on to the singers is the way to do things. Plus there are lots of things left to add that increase the base rate long before passing fees onto singers.

I am very close to pulling the trigger on developing some of my own software and apps for karaoke as well. Diversifying the revenue stream is the name of the game.

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-Chris