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Had I not been exposed to Art, Music, Acting and surrounded by it from almost infancy to college and afterwards.  I'd not really know how to Critique in this area.  I really don't today (because schools of thought on methodology always change).  There was no such thing as "PC" when I was involved in any of this.. Times change.

Dang,  I can't imagine what it's like being a trainer/ instructor now-adays.. You have to watch just about every word lest a pupil bring you to the academic and social integrity committees for coming across as some type of biggot.  This wasn't a concern in my day regarding scholastic Critiquing.  Of course I never grew up in a time where an employer can get into trouble for complementing a woman's dress.

<wondering if I can sue women for complementing my stars>



This is a really good point Connie.  I think it depends on specifically what the performer is looking for.  A person really can't just in general say "Critique me".  Specifically what areas does the performer wish for the listener to comment on ?  In this sense, SOME do qualify to help.  I agree that in the totally subjective sense it's all opinion which is why critiquing and impinging are separated by a fine line WHICH in certain settings "direct" approach or what I consider impinging IS permissable..  (or at least it was when I received those damn things)  :(

Right or wrong, conductors HAVE been VERY insulting, VERY rude to certain people in front of the whole orchestra.. and when you get into the professional level of music study, at the conservatories (old school) *I DID* get my knuckles smacked with a book by angry teachers, HAD to curve fingers a certain way, and HAD to balance glasses of water on the backs of my hands.. Talk about strict.  My parents were told *because I started playing at a young age by ear, having gotten into the habit of looking at my fingers* to tie cardboard under my chin when I was at the piano...

Naturally I beat up Mavis Beacon when she tried teaching me typing that way ~

My classical piano instructor was a Julliard honors grad..  You do not tell such people "It's only music" why are you this serious !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I know of someone who posted a song in SS not long ago asking for an earnest, honest critique.  The musical accompaniment was placed 4 whole tones lower than the pitch the singer was at, had so much reverb it sounded like it was coming out of the Lincoln Tunnel and the bass was amplified so much it came close to blowing holes in my speakers. It was dreadful, but of the large number of positive comments (all but one person mentioned it not sounding quite right) it received a perfect "10" ranking.  I know this for a fact! It was my submission! This was NOT done to deceive anyone, more in the line of an experiment, but it kind of proves perhaps why this imbroglio over critiques is probably a moot subject on SS.

Kappy hon I think we are all in agreement that critiquing in the TRUE sense of the word isnt a feasible option here  :no:
btw please refrain from kissing me at present I have been eating garlic

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I have been following these vote threads the last few days & somethings eating at me...Its VERY easy for people to say "grow up" "act like adults" "respect one another" all that mushy gushy stuff UNTIL...They themselves are involved in something like accusations or nasty comments or they lower themselves down to a level that they never go to...I know I was saying JUST those things before my "ordeal" here...Just wanted people to "think" about that when voting about these proposed changes...That it might just be your turn on the firing lines of one of these "ordeals" next time...So maybe think about that before you say youd NEVER act like that ...I said it too !!

Whew ! I feel better getting that out !! Thanks

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Mornin' Kelley. It is EXTREMELY hard to keep your cool when someone's throwing something nasty your way.  Like I said earlier in this thread, even the most mature person can lose it in a heartbeat if you get 'em just where it stings the most.  Personally, my hot latin temper has gotten the best of me more times than I care to remember....I understand fully where you're coming from.  Just wanna let you know, I HAVE been in your situation...I took it to the forum...and then had to deal with worse kind of behavior than my own.  SO I learned...it was SOOOO NOT worth it.

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Yep Kelley.. I'm in the same boat as you and Luly have found yourselves before..

Back when I first started here.. I got hit by a couple different people.. one wasn't rude and obnoxious to me.. but one went thru almost every song I had up.. and at the time I  subbed under "C"..  he tore apart every song.. and the last straw was when they said " I don't believe in giving false hope.. enuff said...." and then they started going to songs that both Charmin and I had commented on of other people's.. and started talkin about how neither of us are qualified and know what we're talking about..

it was a really nice ordeal... NOT...  I spent a few days very upset determined to never sing again.. someone else that doesn't know me took it to the forums... Charmin and I handled it differently.. we took it to the forums by saying.. ok so and so.. if you're so good then let's hear what you've got to offer..

They subbed a song that may or may not have been theirs who knows.. next step was.. I recorded Build Me Up Buttercup and dedicated it to my #1 critiquer..  haven't seen that nic since.. really doesn't make me all that sad either

Mornin' Cindy  :hug:

Woohoo, with Charmin on your team "buttercup" didn't stand a chance!  LOL


P.S.  You see, THAT kind of critiqueing we can do without.  That's just immature and rude.

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mornin Luly...  

[schild=4 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=FFD700 shieldshadow=5]Get the coffee out please[/schild]

I'm on my 2nd cup  :yum:  LOL

Maybe I'll make you some Cuban coffee...but I gotta warn you, that stuff puts hair on your chest....  LOL

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Morning all ......  :wave:


And its what Kelley has JUST point out .... that makes me feel even more strongly that we simply can't rely on "human judgement" to control the "atmosphere" around here.  We simply are too emotional, even fragile in some cases (at least I know I can be) and reactive.  

Kelley, Luly and Foxe .... are all some the nicest people you could ever wanna "know"  ... yet, they've all had something happen in this FORUM or at the SS that made them react in ways they don't typically react.  I totally remember the event Foxe is describing (its how I "met" her) ... and I know of the trials and tribulations that Luly is referring to ..... and I've actually witnessed what Kelley is talking about.  In all cases, from what I KNOW ... you all had reasons and rights to feel upset.  In each case, in some way .... you were ATTACKED ... or CRITICIZED .... in a way you felt was unfair.  

And that is why I feel as strongly as I do.  It's all well and good to say .... hey, you sub "C" .... you expect some of it to be bad or "be prepared to take it on the chin" .... etc, etc, etc ....... BUT .... I have yet to see THAt have any true bearing on HOW PEOPLE REACT WHEN THEY FEEL ATTACKED OR PUT DOWN.  The numbers breed contempt, as do the negatively written critiques.   And .... If, as people, we could always control ourselves ... there would be no such things as anger, arguments, war ...... or whatever.  But.... we CAN'T always control ourselves..... and that is why its BETTER to have a mechanism in place to at least try to "control" for the things that CAUSE those normal human reactions.  

This IS NOT A MUSIC CONSERVATORY ... this is a KARAOKE SITE.  People who work at and teach at conservatories are EXPECTED to do the tough stuff.  WE ARE NOT.  Yes, some want to hear what others think regarding ways they may be able to improve .... but by no means should anyone EXPECT the kind of harsh critiquing I've seen around here .... or that is being suggested for a "specialty room".  Even in a specialty room ... I'd think that the harsh tone of some of these critiques wouldn't go over well.  

Kappy .... with all due respect, because I think you really do know 'music' and may be one of few around here who can critically listen and offer valid, supportable critiqu ... you discussed a really tough "critique" you got from peers regarding your piano playing.  And you felt that while it was tough ... it was "right".  As I read that ..... I thought to myself...... and not only was it harsh and right ... it was also appropriate!!  I may be wrong .... but it seemed as if you'd gotten together to either just jam ..... or to prepare to "perform" for a paying audience???  In either case.... it was a small group of people who KNEW one another .... and had a right to be "demanding" and "critical" of one another.  Your performance affected the "overall" performance of the group.  And if it was going to be for performance... YES... I can see them nailing you.  But that is NOT the case around here.  In many many many cases, the person offering critique is often someone you've NEVER interacted with .... and 'your' performance, in no way 'affects' them, in the bigger scheme of things.  WHY should someone who has subbed in the "C" category be subjected to that severe a 'critique'?  I am sure, that is NOT what they are looking for.

So again, I say ..... Since we can't control for 'human" nature.... either in terms of being nasty ...... or being reactive .. I think its important to have something in place that helps all of us "control" these tendencies ..... that as Kelley has pointed out ... we are ALL capable of succumbing to ..... given certain triggers.    :(  

Sorry for the book folks...... but had to clean out the brain!!  Been keeping a lot of stuff in "reserve' for the last couple of days.      

   :hug:

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Mornin' sis!  :hug: As always Cindy, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY.  Most of us are amateurs, and I say that in terms of vs professional, not meaning to be deragotory in any way, shape or form.  I am an amateur and I'm sure I will stay at this level.  I am comfortable being where I am musically, at least for the moment.  If I want to improve then I will go to a professional.  Why? Because as well meaning as people may try to be, I would need more than a few pointers, I would need a hands on approach.  

And yes, this is about control.  We've got to have some of it at our disposal.

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to a point I agree with you Cindy... g'morning hon.. and happy belated bday  :hug:



Let me put this out there.. wouldn't having the option to pick and choose which of the 10 comments on a sub can be seen publicly be also relying on human judgement to control the atmosphere? I'm thinking of the flipside tho who controls some people's human nature to want to squelch any comment that isn't glowing of us either ? For some people just seeing someone say they don't have a good mix happening.. or their vocals aren't loud enough.. can cause them to react badly.

no one can control anyone else's behaviors but their own.. I could have easily had that guy sitting in an audience while I was singing.. and he probably would have stood up and caused a scene and boo'd...  so then what ? I should have had him kicked out of the club for the way he chose to publicly display his dislike of me or my efforts?

There are other sites on the Net that I've heard of people refer to as "happyland".. and believe me.. sometimes it gets to be a bit too much happy and goes a bit overboard.  it gets to be a bit too much sometimes for some people.. because it's takes on a less than real feel. Is that what we want here too?

There are people that could be a bit less offensive with words offline as well.. it's all in how we ourselves conduct ourselves around them.. If we can't hold ourselves together when they say things and aren't even in front of us.. then how can we deal with people like that face to face?

I'm not saying that anyone's ideas are bad here.. just giving some things out there for thought..

Not having a "real feel"....shut up Luly.... Sorry, my mind wandered a little there..... I understand what you mean Cindy, but somehow I don't think this would turn into lalaland.  I am sure some people will feel the need to delete or not accept certain comments but I am thinking their judgment would be a little better than to just veto every little thing.  Of course...again we go back to how will each individual react to a certain situation?  You don't really know for sure.

I wish we could do this on a trial basis.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Cindy, I like the expression 'constructive feedback'. I wish we could use that term instead of critique.

Yes, me too, Chuck.  Cause really.... what people want is just that.  They don't want to be harshly raked over the coals.  They want to know ways that they can tweek their performance, perhaps how to better phrase, or where to take a breath .. or what effects sound best.  They aren't looking for the kind of "critque" that the word "critique" implies.  They just want "feedback to get better".  They don't really want to know if they are a "6", "8" or "10".  Not really.... not in most cases, anyway.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

YES CCINDY !   But *THIS* is my point (as I have made in the past).  In ANY "Critiquing" setting an element of respect between giving and receiving party is requisite for this tough (regardless of how you cut it) process to work !  In NO true artistic critique setting on a mature level does the recipient NOT have a right to know the qualifications of those offering the Critique.  

IE... Closed room with Nathan, yourself, Elisha (who I haven't seen in ages), Lonman, and others, perhaps JVJ, (and other musicians OR individuals I know to be as objective/ mature as one reasonably can be in a setting not face to face)....  I would know who you are...  I know the intent is for specific individuals who've earned the right to "judge" me... (which always becomes a source of possible trouble  *remember- Judge not lest be judged*)

Here lies another big problem with the current setup..

"Critique" SHOULD NOT be a "free for all".. (it reminds me of the AOL rooms.. "Critique my Screenname" (which are just bashing rooms). In a Critique category the people offer the critique MUST know something about the process for it to work AND similarly a person doesn't walk in cold off the street and say "Here's what I think about you"... That's halfassed !!

So there ALWAYS must be "respect".  That is a common denominator that allows this process to even semi-work in other settings !   It CAN NOT be a free for all !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I can dislike a person intensely,  HOWEVER,  I still must be willing to say "That was fabulous,  I have never heard that done so tastefully"..  OR to a friend... "In my opinion since you are insistant that I give you a rank,  I'd give you a 3.. You are a fabulous singer, but that was one lazy performance, I KNOW you can do better"..

This is the whole problem with the current rank system...

EXAMPLE:   Billy (OK what now) is a fabulous vocalist IMO in the popular and blues genre's.. HOWEVER that doesn't mean because a vocalist with lesser ability is getting "9's because they "can't carry a tune in a bucket" and never will THEY haven't made progress,   Billy who might average a 7 ot 8 rank (in the realworld) might actually have a 4 or 5 day..  Assuming I substantiate EXACTLY what I feel to be the problem, and give him such a rank I AM NOT comparing him to ANYONE...

Remember THIS motto ?

  "Each according to ability, each according to need" ?

That is what the Critique & rank should be about !    Comparing YOU to YOU only..  How do you compare a non-singer to a pro-am singer ?  That's ludicrous to have a heterogenious "RANK" area set up as apples competing against oranges. Add politics to that, and you have the makings of a war


My opinion:  Rank and Critique as currently set up is a goofy problematic system

Majority opinion:  But we can make lemonade out've what you whiners feel are lemons


Solution:  Real sub-room in a setting such as muses muse has... People have EARNED the right according to their piers (peers?), to critique them !!!  Plain, and not too tough to implement

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Singer's Showcase is a fantasy setting many want.  Real and Fantasy won't work side by side.. Create a REAL venue for those that don't like fantasyland, and let those who want fantasyland have it !  While it'd be wrong (maybe, can't be certain) for me..  It's not wrong for the majority who have inner kids singing karaoke and having fun (I think as Kelley was alluding to-  sorry Kelley the inner kid part is my own spin ).. All perspective..  None are wrong !   But the current SS can not work for ALL...  People fantasize for a reason !   Real is often NOT fun !


ADDED IN:   Making for massive set of probs...  Person subs in Critique category HOWEVER this individual is just fishing for compliments !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I’m all for keeping as many people as happy as possible (hopefully all), Steven.  I think having a separate room for critique as you suggested in a very good idea.  I said so in the other thread.  What did you think of my “format for critique”?  And that it be mandatory  that ALL aspects are covered, the positive and the negative and whatever else in between you wanna add?  AND that the Rules of Respect be posted be in your face with the consequences for them being broken clearly noted?

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