Karaoke Forums

Yes, the URL referal is on Twans Topic, 1st post.

No it's not available from the actual manufacturer sites, just 1 online retailer that doesn't believe in selling computer/hard drive/CAVS jukes to begin with!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I found that link in anohter thread on this forum.

I did notice that the letters are not on the SC or STELLAR Sites.  I would be inclined not to believe it since it is not directly on their sites.  Instead of debating in the forums.. Why doesn't someone send a letter to SC OR STELLAR asking them directly about this and ask them if they can place a comment to clear this up on their site....

But then that would make sense... So why would any one want to do that???

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Will sing or fish for food!!I'm not quite right!!

If you go to the phx retailers website that lonmans talking about and print the statements you will see they are on SC and Stellar letter head. Now I guess some of you will say they could have made them up. Matt, knightshow, has called to verify with stellar , I believe, and BC on the SC board confirmed the statements also. These are not the cease and desist letter from SC. Tom you are right cease and desist letters are usually sent first as a courtesy on the outside chance someone doesn't know there breaking the law and if they persist a cease and desist  ORDER CAN BE GOTTEN FROM THE COURT. Also a cease and desist letter is usually sent when someone wants to establish wilfull use and helps in recovering damages.

Jerry what you are talking about is DJ music, ie audio only.  Canada has such a thing in place also.  It does not cover karaoke music due to the visual, ie sync licences.  Canada is quite clear on that.  If you research Britain, I bet you'll find the same result.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

PPL dont collect money on behalf of the karaoke companies,
but they do collect on behalf of the origonal artist and record company.

What I'm trying to get at is for the karaoke manu to blame it
on the artist and record company is a total cop out.

They have already given their permission to PPL.
It's the manu's wont abide with PPL policies.

No, it's because of the different licencing.  Check into it, you'll find I'm right.  Remember karaoke is a very small market in the music industry which is why things happen much later with us, such as crackdowns or changes in copyright law.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I will try and dig up what I read and get back to you tomorrow.
It's 3:30am here.

Actually, it wasn't me that called Stellar, but I did ask BC on the SC soundboard forum.

You know, as many times as it has been talked about how great it would be to get rid of the pirates and illegal operations that are killing the industry, should we really be THAT upset if certain companies want to combat it...... even if it does include people who happen to own the original discs, but use them on hard drive, etc.? I'm basing these choices on the current, out-dated law, by the way.

If I had a choice between, 1) Things the way they are now , or 2) Going back to the "old fashioned" way of using original discs, while an effort is made to get rid of the true pirates, multi-riggers, and so on..... I would choose #2 in a heartbeat. Without a second thought.

Don't get me wrong, I'd MUCH prefer to run off of a computer for the convenience and protection of my original discs, but I'd gladly give it up if, somehow, they could get rid of at least some, if not most, of the cheaters. Totally understand that that may never happen, but it would be nice.

My biggest worry, if that happens, would be..... would they start making those old d#*m RSQ & JVC karaoke players again?!

There was a time when I was praying that companies would sent out threatening letters about piracy, even if they couldn't follow it through with legal action. At least the places would be "informed" about the problem, and might wanna go straight. Really do wish it wouldn't include the operaters with original discs, though, just because they reformatted.

I'm skeptical that these tactics are going to lessen the piracy problem very much, even taking some deterrent effect into account.  Piracy allows shows to be run so much cheaper that the people who do it are probably not going to be very easily scared off.  The chances of being sued are probably very small unless there's a specific market area the companies are targeting, like they're doing in the Phoenix area.

For the manufacturers, the deterrent effect is really the only thing they're hoping for.  What good does it do to get a multimillion dollar judgment against some small operation like a sole proprietor karaoke jockey?  You can't collect it, and what you could collect most likely wouldn't cover the cost of the anti-piracy operation.  Maybe in the long term you could hope that people starting up new KJing services will be aware of the legal risks involved and choose to do everything strictly by the book.

I guess we'll see.  If it does happen to work, in the long run it will help KJs who run legal operations.

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Reward: nine yen in drawer.

KJChris

The reality of pirating today goes beyond kJ's who have material on hard drives that has not been paid for. There are websites downloading SC and Stellar material to the masses (most of which are probably hobbyists).

The technology today allows for, furthermore, the burning of CDG's, not just individual copies but en masse.  And there are not only "businesses" out there doing that, but individuals, as well.

Nowhere, other than in the trafficking of HD's, are 10's of thousand of songs transferred at one time without compensation to the manufacturers.  I believe SC and Stellar are using the format shifting statues as a subtrefuge -- leaning on that statute to allow them to locate and identify those illegally trafficking (both buyers and sellers) in hard drives.  

And Chris, you "hit the nail right on the head. " If SC's and Stellar's position was such that in their "crackdown" they announced that they would ignore KJ's who were found to have 1:1 setups for each of their shows, WE WOULD THEN BE IN SUPPORT of what they are doing.  Wouldn't we?

But they chose no to take that approach.  Since it is unlikely that it is simply a matter of us being smarter than they are, what is really going on here?

It is my belief that SC and Stellar are trying to protect their own interests, and they have every right to do that.  I sincerely doubt that, if they found a KJ running a show from HDD who they KNEW had a 1:1 CDG setup, they would worry about taking action.  They are wanting to ensure that those tracks have been paid for and therefore they have received their due compensation along with the publishers.  

But HOW DO THEY KNOW that, if you have one PC with tracks on HDD, that you haven't got someone else running another one somewhere else?  Or more to the point, if you have copied one set of tracks onto one HDD, how do you prove that you haven't copied a second, third, fourth, etc. set?  SC and Stellar or any manufacturer could not possibly have any way of knowing how many copies had been made.  And so, they have to take the stand that they are taking to protect their own rights (as well as the rights of the publishers) to their due compensation for the work they have done in creating the product which is so useful in enabling you all to make an income!  Unfortunately, as is true with most things in life, the majority (ie those of us who abide by the rules of fairness) will have to suffer because of the actions of the criminal minds!

I would have no problem with them sending out letters and prosecuting a few as examples. I dont use a lappy and dont intend to.  The actual result of putting bogus multiriggers/HD/CAVS out of business would be to free up more gigs and at a higher payrate--as there would then be fewer kjs availble to compete and undercut the jobs(supply and demand). Whether that be cavs or laptops, either way. Sorry if that sounds too self serving---but i know of MANY who have had to work for less than market value or lost the gigs directly becuase of this issue---theres no way anyone can outlay the amount of $ neccessary to build a 50000 song library only ON DISCS. The biggest cd assortmetns ive come acorss top out at about 18000 and those built up over 10-15 year of accumulation. Not some joker that appears out of nowhwere suddenly with 50000 songs(we have one here who advertises 85000!!) No one could lug that many discs around. I carry 500 dics in two case of karoke and another case of 130 fill music discs---u need a pretty good sized workspace for all those. Plus they are heavy to haul around. Have to get a return on the investment. Lets see 500 at say 20$ a disc----thats 10 GRRRRR in karake discs alone. Now here comes someone out of the blue with a cavs or hardrive with 50000 that they b0ought for 1500---doesnt add up. Do the math and see why they can  lowball.

So.... much as i think the bogus cavs and lappy/hd systems are neat GADGETs.......and are "CONVIENIENT" they also create an inherently unfair competitive advantage .

I HAVE NO SYMPATHY for those who have a hardrive, CAVS system(s) with no master discs to back them up OR USE COMPLETELY BURNED LIBRARIES. For those with lappy/hd who DO OWN THE DISCS--then I CAN generate some agreement to allowing laptop operation. That doenst really create too much competitive advantage. In fact the guy without the lappy MAY HAVE the advantage in capitol costs, upkeep etc etc. Both still have to buy discs to update libraries and both would usually have to have a CDG machine on hand at thier show. And lappy guy would probly have to carry his discs anyway in the event of a computer crash. And computers DO introduce thier own sets of unique costs and potential trouble. They certainley dont make the music sound any better or the video any clearer. Dont
really have a problem with that and dont see that as a threat.

Seems to me that the simple solution for LEGITAMATE LAPPY users is to simply carry the discs with and have them there with u at the show as backups--or for inspection.  a little more weight to carry--but solves problems of inspetion or mechnical breakdown in the field. Perhaps the MFR's could come to some accomodation in this area. Yes u can be liscened to use lappy but must have mster discs with u at the show. Perhaps an umbrella organiation can be created to admisntter such liscensing at he cost of an annual token fee(much like ascap/BMI).

Its the ones with bogus burned libraries, massive unliscend, illegal HD or cavs multiple systmes that create the problems. And to my mind the sooner THOSE people and venues are THREATENED and disappear from the market then the better. And I do personally know of a GOOD NUMBER currently active in my market in PORTLAND, VANCOUVER, SALEM Oregon areas.

But the bare bones bottom line on how to avoid the potential legal liabilities for both the venue and the KJ is simple---dont operate a cavs/hd or lappy to store/play karaoke music. You can still use the lappy to do the rotation listing. Simply use store bought original, non-burn discs the old fashioned legal way. End of problem.

Just my position on the subject and I make NO APOLOGIES about it.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

And have you reported any of those KNOWN illegal operators to the appropriate authorities?  If not, why not?  Would you watch someone break into your neighbour's house and load their possessions into a truck without calling the police?

kjCHRIS' point, which I expanded upon, is very simple - if all that SC and Stellar were trying to accomplish is to rid the world of pirates, they would let it be known that KJ's using hard drives without pirated material would be exempt from their current pursuits.  We have no indication from those who seem to know the most about what is going on that SC and Stellar are inclined to leave "legal" rigs alone.

So, even people with 1:1 setups who are using a hard drive in their shows are now in a tizzy.  Why are those the circumstances?  One poster's reaction was that it's too bad legitimate operators have to be caught up in this. HELL, it's more than too bad.  There are the costs of the hardware and software that can now be "kissed" goodbye.  There's the lost time spent in converting the material to the hard drive.  AND, the likelyhood that the deck run show will not run as smoothly as laptop show your customers have gotten used to!

AND WHAT IS ALL OF THIS FOR?  AGAIN I ASK, WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON in the minds of SC and Stellar?  No other manus have joined them in this specific pursuit.  Sure, every manufacturer wants to eliminate piracy.  What SC and Stellar are doing goes way beyond eliminating piracy!  Doesn't anybody see that?  Again, if this were going to eliminate piracy and not hurt legitimate operators, everyone would be for it!

[glow=darkorchid][highlight=gold]They see $$$$$$$. They know that Mostly Kj's buy their products, as they are the premium priced market. They expect, and hope that kj's that already own cdg's will again buy the same tracks in format-shifted form. Thereby doubling their market. as far as I'm concerned, they have lost me as a customer. If I have to I will find another way to make a living, rather than put more money in their pockets.[/highlight][/glow]

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I'm Not Dead yet...... But every day Im getting Closer !

They cannot legally announce that they would ignore 1:1 KJs.  This would be equivalent to a police department announcing they would ignore anyone going x mph above the speed limit.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Yes, found stuff on the Sync License. Your quite right.
What I was looking for was PPL's reply to an english forum. Didnt mention Sync. Then I only have the posters word that it is authentic.
Read some frightning stuff today.

What is copyright? Quite literally; the right to copy.
No one has a right to copy anything tangible that they didn't create.
Subscribe to our product and we will allow you to use our product in the manner described by us exactly.

While I have the right to say I have the right... anything following that dosn't seem to mean a whole lot.