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When driving towards Niagra Falls NY... It's amazing to see just how much power Niagra Falls generates...and over what distance

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Another interesting thing,,,   In Florida a Sinkhole swallows a lake...   Lake Scott I think ???

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You have a lot of stuff going on in this thread. I'll try and catch up a bit.

It's true hills and mountainsides don't protect you from a tornado. The day of the Jarrell F5 tornado in '97 just a bit to my NE it also produced an F4 that crossed Lake Travis and went over to the Hazy Hills subdivision. This was a hilly area. It killed an off duty emergency technician. And yep, no reason to open windows. Instead people reach for their video cameras and run outside!  LMAO This is sad but true. I see it all the time, when I am passing through towns under a tornado warning with sirens going off. They should be taking cover.

I don't believe I had heard of the Worcester F5. I'll have to post that link to chaser friends and get all the details on it. Sounds like it was indeed a monster. Those winds were probably old estimated speed. The highest measured windspeed of a tornado by the DOW and Josh Wurman was 318 mph 50 meters above the ground at Moore, OK in '99. Since then it has been rounded down a bit to a range around and possibly above 301mph.  

In CT you aren't a prime tornado target, but they certainly do happen. It seems to me the current climactic trend for severe / tornadic weather has been moving north, and east particularly in La Nina years. Currently we are in an El Nino phase, but longer range forecast models through May indicate the possible development of La Nina conditions. I personally am forecasting a reasonably good tornado chase season for the southern plains because of average to above average expected rainfall in the southern plains along with a continuous SW/NE mid level jet flow. La Nina supposedly favors formation of mid level low pressure systems near CA translating across the US setting the stage for severe / tornadic in the southern plains, but early Spring may also favor mid west and IL, IN, KY, TN and possibly even some further east your way to some degree. This early there is a lot of guesstimating and a lot of error in the models.

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Bill,  Not "prime" per se.   Tornado Alley is 1  (and that includes most of the central states now,  AND the mid-west  (after all the Xinia tornado, and tri-state tornadic activity was brutal.)   The Gulf area is 2..  and It's my understand that the valley between the Appalachians (in my case Adirondacks) and atlantic is 3 because of the front created when Canadian air meets warming atlantic air causing circular activity in the valley

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This looks like an interesting meteor catastrophe simulator.  You can program your own ominous strike and see what'd happen  http://www.barringercrater.com/game/


http://www.barringercrater.com/

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Your a NUT....

If it's a tornado by definition it's in contact with the ground. Prof Ted Fujita and his group determined that multiple vortices and satellite tornadoes about the main vortex was a cause for erratic damage in the path. Lying on the ground really isn't safe but it is better than standing up. You are a bit safer on the ground or in a ditch because ground friction and objects protect you a bit, and wind velocities are lower on the ground than further up. They can be survived that way, but a direct hit with a strong tornado would be very tough. I was told by an engineering expert that deals with tornado damage that a big problem with lying in a ditch is that debris tends to collect and pile up there. Tornadoes do lift some, they don't really skip. They tend to form and eventually breakdown. Then if conditions are favorable they will reform. There is some amount of uncertainty with tornado positioning since they are pendant from a cloud and process very high up in the atmosphere. Basically the further away the safer a person is. Spotters probably shouldn't be too close. Most usually give it berth to pass, but sometimes they get stuck a bit.  Chasers pretty well do whatever they please. There are some that stay back 5 miles, while others seem to want to get as close as possible or even sometimes inside the tornado. This has happened by accident many times. My friend Gene Moore has been hit by tornadoes chasing probably at least 7 times. I've had a number of very near misses. I like to get close. I just love tornadoes, and the unworldly powerful and large forces at work. It is like beholding something from another dimension. I try not to do anything stupid though. I study these things a lot, and all my experience and equipment helps tell me when I am safe or not. Sometimes though mother nature is unpredictable and she will throw stuff at you that you didn't expect.

As far as safety when encountering tornadoes in open spaces the order of things to do is: 1) Get out of the path if you have time and can reasonably ascertain the direction the tornado is headed and you have an alternate route; otherwise 2) look for a strong reinforced type of structure such as a home or business building - preferably underground; 3) look for a ditch or deep culvert to lay in - be aware of flooding issues; 4) Alternatively to a ditch you can consider an overpass if it is the type that allows you to climb up INSIDE the girders to an area of shelter - if not the correct type do not go there because Bournolli Effect type forcing can accellerate winds there even higher sucking you out, or pelting you with huge amounts of debris. The overpass is always a judgement call and not really a good one.  If none of those 4 things are available I'd probably try and run or just lay down on flat ground or both. Not a good situation to be in.

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I was recently studying that whole rocket probe into the tornado thing and discussing it with other chasers and severe meteorologists. Primarily it is a stunt for publicity so they can get their day of attention in the sun. There isn't a lot of data that hasn't already been gathered that a rocket can provide. Rockets have been attempted before and have basically 'bounced off' of tornadoes. It is probably possible with tornado LDRS amateur rocket technology to perhaps enter a tornado. Forces on impact would be great and structural failure likely. A passive approach such as opening the shoot near the tornado and allowing it to be pulled in probably has a better chance. What really needs to be done in my opinion is a joint lauch of balloons or similar devices carrying instruments with mostly neutral bouyancy and delivering them to different portions of a supercell storm such as inflow, rear flank downdraft, etc There is still much to be learned about tornado formation, the affect of the RFD in tornadogenesis, and properties of the interracting air such as temperature, dewpoint, and buoyancy. Knowing those types of things helps create better models of what localized conditions cause tornadoes to form.

As for the dust devil - a tornado is required to be in contact with or pendant from a cumulonimbus type cloud structure and they are typically associatd with deep moisture convection. A dust devil is created due to uneven heating of the earth's surface and thermals. A gustnado is a harder call. They look similar to dust devils, but form near or under cloud formations. They too are generally not considered true tornadoes, but they are related to shear processes along the thunderstorm gust front. Landspouts are true tornadoes, but not created or associated with a mesocyclone (super cell storm).

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Yeah here you've got me although I am fascinated by the whole subject. I've seen all the clips and programs on this too. I'm no expert on this, but from what I understand and have heard it is a combination of things. People are overwhelmed by a large amount of water. Sometimes it isn't extremely deep, but sometimes it is. The most recent tsunami at the point closest the earthquake zone had waves estimated up to 100 ft - I think that was Bande Ace or however you spell that. Other places it was more like 30 ft, and of course some even lower. However the amount of forces are incredible and it picks up and carries huge amounts of debris. Sometime people get trapped or overrun by water and debris, or injuries preventing them from swimming. I am sure there is plenty of under tow also (but that is just a guess). I think a lot of people are just trapped and drowned.

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Tsunami waves have a very long wave length, as compared to a normal wind driven wave.  A wind driven wave, having a short wave length, is able to "break" at the shore.  But a  tsunami wave is much longer and therefore take longer to "break".

Basically, the longer the wave length, the longer it take for the wave to "break".

Yeah that is a cool topic - the super volcanoes. I just watched the Discovery or Nat Geo special on this a second time, and also listened on audio to 'A Brief History of Nearly Everything'. That book is really cool and covers super volcanoes. I've forgotten all the details, but some I remember are:

The entire Yellowstone park is a super volcano caldera - something like 40 miles x 60 miles, and has an associated area of magma pooled beneath the surface going down 5 miles or so I seem to recall. Yellowstone is the largest super volcano in the world and the only one appearing on land. It has had 3 previous super eruptions and many smaller eruptions and vent openings. I seem to recall they believe one Yellowstone eruption (perhaps the first) to be related to an extinction event. Yellowstone sits atop a hot spot and moves over this hot spot as the crust moves. There have been 10 or more other super eruptions associated with the hot spot before it got to Yellowstone. You can even see on satellite where the caldera and eruptions have occurred as is scars a smooth area through mountains. Historically Yellowstone super eruptions to occur around every 600,000 to 650,000 years. Based on that I believe we are do as it's been about 680,000 since the last super eruption. Such an eruption would have catastrophic consequences for the world and could potentially be an extinction event for humans.  It would have a huge initial blase radius where things would be incinerated - I forget 5000 sq miles - a radius of 200 to 500 miles?  Have to look that up. The worst damage would be done because of the huge amount of ash lofted high in the upper atmosphere that would stay aloft for years dramatically cooling the Earth and leading to crop failures, starvation, and probably alter the climate patterns.  In recent years a lake in Yellowstone was found to be getting warmer and part of it rising and pushing all the water to the other end of the lake. These could be signs of super activity, but they just don't know for sure. Yellowstone is an active super volcano that always gets seismic activity, thermal activity, etc. It would be hard for them to judge if it was ramping up. The general consensus is that it could blow tomorrow, or in another 100,000 years. Sometimes volcanoes don't follow patterns. Eruptions of the past could have cleared it out a bit and relieved pressure preventing it from erupting in a pattern. Plus the next Yellowstone eruption could be a minor, more typical eruption. For an idea of the strength of a Yellowstone eruption compared to Mt St Helens if you considered the amount of mass ejected by Mt St Helens to add up to an object the size of a ping pong ball then a similarly related Yellowstone mass would be an large round object big enough for you to stand and hide yourself behind.

This is most of what I remember about this fascinating subject. Guess I am in to this type of topic.

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http://www.ess.washington.edu/tsunami/g ... stics.html

found this link on tsunamis

from the little knowlege I have regarding tsunami it is a mixture of things. the first it the phenomenon of the sea emptying...where there is normally water is empty almost as if the sea is taking a deep breath and holding it. then comes the wave (the exhalation of breath) the momentum and the dimension being of such force as to wipe everything off its feet...now that in itself may not be enough to kill you or cripple you...but bumping into uprooted trees and swirling mobile debris may do. then there is the undertow as the sea again seems to suck in its breath...and a little like the earthquake that caused it there is the aftershock for want of a better word...the wave that may not be as violent but is still violent enough to send debris hurtling around doing damage.
I guess that is how I understand it

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That's a crazy looking site man. I'll have to check it out.

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Man, read that one on "Nuclear War". Talk about terrible and unsurvivable....

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That's pretty close, but different wave characteristics can hit in different places. In some the low part of the wave comes first and then the high part. In others the high part of the wave hits first. In the last big one to hit Hawaii they saw the sea 'emptying' at first before the main wave came. I was actually taking a vacation on Kona and driving around the island I stopped in near a bay and realized it was a place that had been hit by a tsunami and many died 50 years ago or so. I had watched a program about it, and there I was seeing it for real. I even got to check out the memorial.

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You could also add in the countless millions that would die during the ensuing panic should this event occur in our lifetime, hell we kill each other for no reason now, just imagine if everyone were starving to death, i'd almost rather live right next to the volcano and get it over with........

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It is very addictive.........

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Speaking of which Nathan,  Do you recall the painting "The Scream" that was stolen from an art exhibition in Norway I think, but was either found or returned ?  That was painted within a year of the Krakatoa eruption and supposedly is a person facing that eruption, that's the theme I believe causing that panic..  I'll see if I can find something and post it..

Bill,  I have so much to address regarding what you brought up,  Also regarding Vickie, and Twansenne's Tsunami info..  I'll need to do this tomorrow, This is a fascinating topic, but I need to catch at least a few hours shut-eye..  I want to find some info if I can regarding that famous (ugly) painting the scream...See if I can support what I vaguely recall regarding that.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Here is something regarding the link between "The Scream" and Krakatoa..

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/arts/ ... r=USERLAND


btw,  It's true,  the largest waves seen in the Pacific (IE, Surf photo's that have gotten around 40-50 feet are wind generated :breakers:, Largest being around Hawaii)..  Tidal waves aren't particularly tall waves (of course this also has a lot to do with topography of the ocean floor and slope/entry area of the coast where it hit's land, but as Twansenne mentioned they are enormous in terms of having at times a mile of water behind what might only be perceptable as being a 3 foot high wave. Behind the approaching wave is a steady momentum at least that same height, so I guess (as vickie mentioned) the force from the velocity of a few feet of water similar to water cresting over Niagra falls or 3 feet of water rushing over a dam top when it breaks is EXTREMELY powerful, Sort've like extremely powerful rapids I suppose......  Alaska had a massively large *high* tidal wave caused (I think) by a landslide a distance away.  Often *at least from what I've read, I have no firsthand knowledge of ANY of this stuff THANK GOD, I'd rather have this awed fascination from a distance* A Tsunami which travels EXCEPTIONALLY fast (around the speed of sound) while traveling in water often won't be too detectable to those in large boats and vessels in the deeper seas,,, Because it might only at that point be a few feet  and quite diffused.  Certain things are tough to comprehend... IE...  Just how very few 200 lb strong males can stand up to a 70 mph sustained wind..  It's tough to understand.. How is "wind" measured though ?  pressure against what type surface area ?   A chipmonk could probably scurry around fine with it's smaller surface area (lesser area of resistance) in a wind that would blow over a horse... Air foils lift heavy planes that travel how fast ?  Under 150 Mph at takeoff ?   It's tough to understand just what 70 mph wind means ? It's a lot more than how fast cleanex will fly in air traveling that fast..  Is it measured in terms of pressure per cubic inch ?   I don't know this stuff...  Water pressure too ..  It's pretty abstract I suppose.
It only recently dawned on me that wind speed, and water pressure aren't just perceptable by merely how fast these elements travel. But their force on objects they impact often not just in a straight path..

It's tough to understand what a wall of wind traveling means. I can't conceive of what it'd be like to be standing someplace, and suddenly a mile of 15 inch high water charges at your shins.. I suppose that's the problem, I'm not familiar with the actual power and force of these elements, it's nothing we can really visualize.

Bill,

   If a Tornado touches down, (or has yet to touch down) in an area with very little dirt and debris *let's assume hypothetically a huge blacktop area*  wouldn't the vortex be invisible except for the higher elevation Cumulonimbus conditions ? I thought it was the debris only caught in the vortex that made the funnel cloud visible.    Perhaps water droplets too traveling at that speed,  dunno.. But I thought invisible tornadic activity wasn't unheard of...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".